Sunbeam, your comment, "...we are not worthy..." is tough to swallow because God did not create waste. If were not worthy, why the trouble of sending his son to earth? Guest77
My story, please read
by fairchild 108 Replies latest jw friends
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Sunbeam
Hi Golf
Yes, I see what you mean, I've been clumsy in my use of words. I guess what I should have said is that because we are all sinful, we are not worthy to enter God's presence. But as the Bible says whilst we were still sinners, Jesus died for us - to enable us to do just that. So, obviously we do have great worth in God's eyes.
Does that make better sense?
Gillian
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Golf
Right on Sunbeam! Guest77
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fairchild
Hi One and newlight, thank you for the info on CoC, I added it to my list of books to buy. The list is getting long, but so will be the days of being snowed in here in the valley this winter, so there will be plenty of time to read.
One, yes, the dates you are bringing up here have been brought up before by a few people. I'm planning on researching them all, one at the time. I'm currently looking into the 607 thing.
Love and peace back to you, anuva. Hmm I do believe that many JW's will make a special effort to be good to others. However, the results are not guaranteed. The inclination of the heart is bad.. Actually, I have a strong belief that we are all born in a certain way, that the inclination of our heart is something we were born with, good or bad.. just like we were born with brown or black hair. You can dye your hair, but the color underneath will still be the same, it is just hidden from the eye for a while, until the dye wears off.
Fact remains that I have gone to conventions and left my purse on a chair (with money in it), in order to save the chair. You know what I mean?
Sunbeam, I actually have looked into the born again viewpoint. I stopped going down that alley when two born agains gave me an opposite viewpoint on the trinity. One said the trinity was fine to believe in, the other one was strongly opposed to it. To this day I still don't know what exactly they believe. Maybe some time I will check it out again.
Dan-o, thanks for reading my story and for replying. I know, many feel guilty and I'm no exception.
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jgnat
Fairchild, in my opinion born-again Christians should believe in the trinity. They follow the Nicene Creed as do all orthodox Christians. However, just as there are many kinds of JW's some born-again Christians set up their own belief system based on their own interpretation of the bible. Without researching the matter fully, I could see how a born-again Christian may decide on a dualist Christianity, or one closer to the JW view. Except none would say, I think, that Jesus is any less than fully God.
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steve2
Hello again Fairchild,
The issues are multiplying very fast and there is so much to consider!
My opinion is that, when any of us are in the early stages of struglling to come to terms with doubt and religious belief, it's not a helpful idea to be overloaded with too much information. Yet, doubt, like faith, sometimes has an urgent quality about it that forces the individual to take on more than he or she normally would.
If the ongoing discussion is becoming too much for you, don't hesitate to give yourself permission to do what you need to do to look after yourself. I'm trying to put myself in your shoes and would imagine that the last thing you need right now are lengthy dissertations from others on a multiplicity of differing ideas.
On the other hand, if this is invigorating you, go to it!
The most important thing, however, is that you take care of yourself...coming to terms with the normal human capacity to doubt and question belief systems can be an important step in finding the world a more manageable place in which to live.
steve2
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anuva
hi fairchild
i really appreciate and fully understand when you said .......
The inclination of the heart is bad.. Actually, I have a strong belief that we are all born in a certain way, that the inclination of our heart is something we were born with, good or bad.. just like we were born with brown or black hair. You can dye your hair, but the color underneath will still be the same, it is just hidden from the eye for a while, until the dye wears off.
Fact remains that I have gone to conventions and left my purse on a chair (with money in it), in order to save the chair. You know what I mean?
absolutely i understand, we as true humans
should feel the happiness of good(your experiances with JWs) and also help and support and understand and encourage innocent victims(those with painful experiances in JW and WTS )to sustain and fight back , i am doing both , am i wrong in the eyes of any of elder of WTS?
what i really wanted to say is that JWs adn WTS should stop victimising all outsiders as 'satan' and all 'JWs' as spiritual paradise ,
good and evil heart are everywhere , just as you also say , i must say you are very fortunate to have good souls who happeneed to be JWs, there aremany who aren't..
just as in the world outside , there are thieves in JWs, there are murderes in JWs , there are spouse abusers in JWs , and of course like the outer world , there are Child molesters among JWs.?
if you still attend any Kingdom hall , you may ask elder to write to WTBTS that they should not "generalise any trait as belonging to any community " as they do in Watchtower and Awake , also kingdom ministry .will you ?
i hope you will be allowed to say that .
love and peace
anuva
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Sunbeam
Hi Fairchild and thank you for your reply
I can see that you're going to have a lot to read over the winter, I hope you find it helpful.
I feel the Trinity, the 607/1914 dates and similar issues are to some extent red herrings away from the real issue of who Jesus is and why he came. I came to this conclusion after looking into the JW religion over the course of several years. Prior to this I'd been an atheist, but I fell in love with a JW and was very disturbed by aspects of his religion. The parts that bothered me at the time were 1) blood transfusions, 2) the fact he wasn't even supposed to be having friends outside the faith let alone dating me, 3) the strange attitude of other JW's towards me - whether this was as an 'interested one' or an unsuitable girlfriend, 4) the society's attitude towards education/careers.
I began researching the religion and its history on the web. http://freeminds.org/ was really helpful in particular. I have to say that initially I thought the organisation was so close to the truth, perhaps they really did have God's blessing. But I felt that the God they portrayed wasn't the loving God I was beginning to feel existed. So I decided to test JWism and orthodox Christianity - I compared their arguments and scriptures and on every point orthodox Chirstianity won out.
When I eventually discovered the gospel, it was in an 'invitation service' on my local church's website. I realised it was hugely different to the new 1914 gospel taught by the JW's. This was what I was searching for and when I prayed to Jesus he answered. In Galatians we are told what our attitude to 'new' or 'different' gospels should be and the JW Kingdom gospel in no way matches the kingdom gospel that Paul taught, which is the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
To briefly answer your point on the Trinity, this appears at first like a purely academic question. However, denying it is sufficiently important to the Watchtower's existence that the NWT bible has been altered to support their beliefs. There is a pattern to their changes - they alter scriptures that support the deity of Christ, his close relationship with believers (they will be 'in' him, not 'in union' as the JWs teach), the work of the Spirit etc. The reason is that as a divine being, Jesus could pay for all our sins - but if he was only a man, as the WT teach, he could only wipe out Adam's sin. The next step, therefore, as a JW is to join an organisation that will keep you out of sin. They are trying to be saved by what they do, by works, after Jesus's initial 'down payment'. The next step, however, for an orthodox Christian, is to receive the Holy Spirit, that 'indwells' the believer, and gives them 'the mind of Christ.' They can then walk in step with him, through his Spirit. JW's are taught this is just for an elite class of believers who they are expected to follow unquestioningly. It is simply the standard 'born-again' experience, though, felt by millions over the world. JW's, therefore, are taught to follow men and 'Bible-based publications' - whereas orthodox Christians follow God through his Spirit and the Bible.
The word 'Trinity', of course, isn't in the Bible. It was a doctrine that developed in an attempt to explain the truths found in scripture and protect them. The Holy Spirit, for example, is portrayed in the Bible as a person, who can feel, be grieved, etc. Jesus is worshipped, prayed to and described as God (not a god, the WT is inconsistent in its application of this rule), he claims only God can be good but describes himself as the 'good shepherd', etc. Verses and titles ascribed to God are also ascribed to Jesus. There are numerous scriptures that I could recount in support of the Trinity, from the 'Alpha & Omega' references in Revelation which surprisingly the JW's haven't altered to 'in the name (not names) of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit' and I'm sure you'll find them in your search.
Please be aware that the JW description of the Trinity is not accurate. So they describe Jesus, God and the Spirit as one and then say this can't be, as Jesus would therefore be praying to himself. The Trinity is 3 persons, 1 God - so deconstructing the all 3 are the same person model is misleading.
Anyway, enjoy your reading and have a good holiday.
Gillianx
PS In case you're interested, I married the JW 7 years ago and he's now out of the religion. The poor chap just has a born-again wife of 5 years to contend with now.
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fairchild
Thank you all once again for replying and following up. I have taken note of some books that were suggested to me, and will buy them on my next trip to the city. I will give this a rest for now, as a lot of information has been handed to me in this topic and I need some time to mill it over. Thanks.