What is the truth?

by OldSoul 78 Replies latest jw friends

Outaservice

JOHN 14:6 JESUS ANSWERED, "I AM THE WAY AND THE 'TRUTH' AND THE LIFE. NO ONE COMES TO THE FATHER EXCEPT THROUGH ME."
TAKE IT OR LEAVE IT, THE CHOICE IS YOURS.
OUTASERVICE
Double Edge

Hi OldSoul, and WELCOME...
I come from a little different perspective.... I've never been a JW, I just have a close friend who is one. I came to this board to try and understand my friend's unusual "reasoning" with regards to Christianity. This board has been more than instructive, to say the least. I've been to numerous Christian churches and have studied the history of Christianity for many years. I don't consider myself an expert by any reach of the imagination, but I have learned some interesting facts along the way.
Pontius Pilate asked, and now I'm asking. I've been reading many topics in here, now I am wondering... what is truth?

I've always found that part of the New Testament account intriging. Seems as if Pilate was just like every other person on this plant (at least the curious ones) in his quest for "truth". I think THAT question was inspired by our Creator to motivate a lot of us into searching for the "treasures" of life - knowingly, it would take a lifetime to answer.
I see where many of you have discovered that Jehovah's Witnesses don't have the truth. Okay. ..... What should one of Jehovah's Witnesses replace their "falsely called knowledge" with?

If one is interested in "truth" regarding Christianity I would think you would have to go back to what the Christians were doing in the First Century and see how the "truth" measures up with what was being lived then. I think Jehovah's Witnesses live some of the "truths" as taught originally, but as sects goes, there are others who are more closely aligned to the Gospel as taught by Jesus Christ.
Let's take the following scripture:
Acts 17
11 Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.
Paul was the authority, but they didn't leave it up to him to interpret the scriptures for them. They had the freedom to examine them for themselves without fear of being ostricized. Can a Witness do the same in their congregation?
Second Timothy 2:15 says to ?rightly divide the word of truth? (2 Tim. 2:15). This needs to be a diligent effort. Too many today, like the Catholics years ago, depend upon the ?clergy? to do the studying and interpreting for them. The Lord commanded ?we work out our own salvation with fear and trembling? (Phil. 2:12). Christians believe that all will give answer for themselves on the Day of Judgment, if so, can they leave their salvation in the hands of others? We must learn to study God?s word for ourselves, test the spirits, and prove all things (Acts 17:11; 1 John 4:1; 1 Thess. 5:21). When we trust another to do our studying for us, we could likely be the ?blind following the blind? (Luke 6:39). That is why we must all learn as individuals to study our Bibles for ourselves and rightly divide the word of truth.
With regards to you list of questions, the following are my opinions:
Is God a trinity? God, Jesus and the Holy Ghost are three distinct "individuals" with ONE purpose. btw, various Christian churches believe that too.
Does man have an immortal soul? Yes.... it's taught throughout the scriptures and was believed by First Century Christians
Was Mary a virgin when she miraculously conceived Jesus? I believe so, but as many things, it is a matter of faith.
Does God exist? I look around at this awesome creation and I just don't see how there cannot be a Creator.
Is God omniscient? I believe so (again, a matter of faith)
Does the Bible lie outrightly? Not outrightly. Although I do believe God intended us to have this set of scriptures as a ?guide?, he also wanted us to use our brains and hearts in discovering it?s ?truths?.
Is God omnipresent? I believe so (again, a matter of faith)
Although God's principled love is unconditional, are there conditions on God's friendship? No. We create the conditions were we stop God from blessing us, but we can never stop Him from loving us, which includes his ?friendship? or desire to be one with us.
Does it matter what we believe? It matters to me what I believe.
Does it matter what we do? I guess it depends on what you?re doing
Is there any such thing as moral and immoral, right and wrong? Of course...God created black and white?. But, He also created gray. Example: Torturing a baby?right or wrong?? come on, that?s obvious. Homeless person stealing some food to survive?.sounds like gray to me.
If so, who sets the standard? Immanuel Kant? Hardly ? that philosopher seems to contradict himself a lot.
Is God a vindictive bastard bent on confusing and ultimately destroying humanity? No? silly, a Creator creates, not destroys. He gave most of us marvelous minds and hearts. It?s for us to use them to become wise or dormant.
my 2 cents ...
undercover

What should one of Jehovah's Witnesses replace their "falsely called knowledge" with? Where should they go away to, exactly?

For instance:
Is God a trinity?
Does man have an immortal soul?
Was Mary a virgin when she miraculously conceived Jesus?
Does God exist?
Is God omniscient?
Does the Bible lie outrightly?
Is God omnipresent?
Although God's principled love is unconditional, are there conditions on God's friendship?
Does it matter what we believe?
Does it matter what we do?
Is there any such thing as moral and immoral, right and wrong?
If so, who sets the standard? Immanuel Kant?
Is God a vindictive bastard bent on confusing and ultimately destroying humanity?
Were we created?

These are some of the basics I would need to know the answers to in order to choose to leave. There are many others besides these. Basically, I don't see any great light in here yet.

"These are some of the basics I would need to know the answers to in order to choose to leave. There are many others besides these."
My list of basic questions differ:
Does God speak through the Faithful and Discreet Slave?
Does the Faithful and Discreet Slave claim that he does?
Have prophecies as related by the Faithful and Discreet Slave ever failed?
Has the Faithful and Discreet Slave ever changed doctrine or how the followers should believe?
Has the Faithful and Discreet Slave ever lied?
Has Armageddon come as has been promised by the Faithful and Discreet Slave?
Has Jesus returned as has been promised by the Faithful and Discreet Slave?
Is Jesus my mediator? Or is the Faithful and Discreet Slave?
The biggest difference between the sets of questions is obvious. One set asks about God. The other, the Faithful and Discreet Slave. I admit, I don't have answers for the questions about God. I don't think it matters. As a JW, all direction supposedly from God comes through the F&DS. If the F&DS cannot stand up to scrutiny then they obviously are not directed by God. If they are not directed by God, then the first set of questions is pointless. God doesn't exist through the F&DS. That makes the F&DS false prophets and liars and not worthy of being placed on a pedestal with God.
ThisGuy04

I'm trying to find out what's all the hub-bub, Bub. That's it. Trying to find out what there is to leave <i>for</i>, after having read so many threads devoted to what to leave <i>from</i>.

I find it...interesting...that there's a need to find anything better, before leaving. From my short time on this site, from what I've seen, it's point is to show why/how JW's are wrong in allot of their belief's and have mislead many people, many times; and IMHO, there is allot of evidence to back that up. Isn't the fact that they're wrong enough to want to leave? I guess not, b/c I've heard it before from "spiritually strong" witnesses that the true reason they believe in the organization (other than ignorance to the facts....sorry, cheap shot ) is b/c they haven't found anything else. When asked why they personally started to believe so strongly, I even had an elder say to me "Because it was the religion with the least wrong with it." And that's enough?!?
I'm not saying I have any answers, but maybe the answer is to just keep searching.
Just my two cents.. .
Double Edge

Undercover... I really like YOUR list.
This Guy04:
I'm not saying I have any answers, but maybe the answer is to just keep searching.
Great point!
Narkissos

OldSoul,
I think that might be the dividing line between those who stay and those who leave... you cared what other humans thought of you to the point that you stopped being true to yourself.
To me this is a hasty, unfair and offensive generalisation. I personally don't take offence, as nothing could be farther from my case: when I was df'd for apostasy (over 18 years ago), most of my family and all of my friends (many very dear to me) were JWs. I knew they wouldn't understand "what happened to me". And I had no contact (beside my "return visits" and "Bible studies") with non-JWs.
I just did what I previously told you: I stopped professing what I had come to realise I was not believing anymore. I taught and preached with the Bible only (especially the Gospels). This soon raised questions (the "Judicial Committee" type) and I tried to answer them honestly. That's all.
After that I didn't spend my time whining against the WTBTS. I followed my own path among other people. I just recently (over one year ago) came to ex-JW boards when I found some time to do so -- and I do find this one pretty interesting btw.
I understand you are sincere. Your "students", you say, "choose Jehovah". OK, but what do they choose him from? The JW system of "Bible studies" is a powerful method of indoctrination. During months, or years, you ask your questions, then let people answer your questions from your chosen verses. This builds into them a strong structure of moral constraint. When you finally ask people if they want to become JWs, it's either yes or what? "I willfully choose against what has been proved to me to be the truth, and so I condemn myself"? Nice choice.
You may say, people can object to the demonstration and prove it wrong anytime. Formally right. But who is really intellectually and emotionally able to do so? I basically agree with you that no one is ever deceived without somehow willing to be deceived, but this in no way suppresses the responsibility of the deceiver.
You seem to be a militant advocate of free will. Free will is an endless debate within the Christian Church. I think psychological factors are decisive as to which side of the issue one takes. IMO strong people are usually on the side of free will (Pelagius, Arminius), whereas weaker and more sensitive people are rather on the opposite side (Augustine, Luther). In the New Testament you can find both views, but I bet Paul and John would not side with yours. This is worth thinking.
Valis

the answer is to just keep searching.

I think the answer to why to leave JWland lies in understanding the above statement and how it is different than being "furnished" with "knowledge". Every time you go to the hall it is like heading straight to a trough. I mean really how long would you last if you sat down and tried to have an open and honest dialogue with the whole congregation? Scripted answers simply can't satisfy the searching mind IMO. And welcome to the board.
Sincerely,
District Overbeer
Pole

Do those who get baptized as teenagers also use their "free will" to decide which religion they'll stay in for the rest of their lives? DO children believing in Santa use their free will when they take what their parents say at face value?

Free will is a highly disputable concept in many ways. Philosophically, psychologically and religiously.

Only lawyers take it seriously in its entirety. And they're usually wrong in doing so. Especially lawyers in religoius courts. :)

Pole
BrendaCloutier

Oldsoul, Ignore Brad's (formerout) comment
You will find that Brenda's comments are some of the wisest here
I'm really just a smart ass in disguise! I learned it from my Elder father.
Hugs to ya both
Brenda
jgnat

What should one of Jehovah's Witnesses replace their "falsely called knowledge" with?
Is there a "should"? Does Jehovah God require all to know and live the same? Even at the time of Jesus? arrival, there were African Jews, Chinamen and Eskimos that did not get his message. Nevertheless, as Paul says, God is evident anyways, all around us, in our big, beautiful world.

Where should they go away to, exactly?
Not where, who. A Kingdom Hall is just a building. One does not become a car by sitting in a garage, as my pastor loves to say. Neither does one become a Christian by regular attendance at the meetings. Who do we serve? I maintain that there are accidental Christians in the Kingdom Hall who demonstrate Christ?s love daily. Just as there are imitation Christians in the church down the street. Others? heart condition SHOULD not be your concern. What is your heart condition?

I have a problem with SHOULD. The Watchtower society controls behavior, as the Pharisees did, with a long string of SHOULD?s and SHOULD NOT?s. Instead, ask yourself, today, what can you do to please the Father?
I see most of your questions are matter of doctrine, and in my opinion, are of little consequence with the most central issue; are you a follower of Christ? Do you accept His sacrifice as enough to give you peace? There are Christians in churches who sincerely attempt to follow Christ?s life pattern. Go on a hunting expedition and find one. If you are sick of organized churches, go on walkabout and do some personal soul-searching. Find your heart.
1. Is God a trinity?
Can a blind man describe an elephant? All of us will have impaired understanding until we meet Him face to face.

2. Does man have an immortal soul?
Is there ether between the stars? Anything immeasurable remains a question. Can you live with that uncertainty?

3. Was Mary a virgin when she miraculously conceived Jesus?
How many angels dance on the head of a pin? This is a doctrinal question, not a life-saving one.

4. Does God exist?
From my personal experience, I say a most definite YES.

5. Is God omniscient?
See answer to question 1.

6. Does the Bible lie outrightly?
How can a ?thing? lie? Only people do.

7. Is God omnipresent?
See answer to question 1.

8. Although God's principled love is unconditional, are there conditions on God's friendship?
I don?t know. Has he told you so?

9. Does it matter what we believe?
I think so. My belief system governs how I act.

10. Does it matter what we do?
See answer to question 9.

11. Is there any such thing as moral and immoral, right and wrong?
I believe so. My rule of thumb is if the behavior selfishly harms the young or the vulnerable.

12. If so, who sets the standard? Immanuel Kant?
I smell another SHOULD question.

13. Is God a vindictive bastard bent on confusing and ultimately destroying humanity?
It all depends. How literal are we going to take the events of the Old Testament?

14. Were we created?
I believe so. Is your surety dependent on a literal application of the Genesis account?

What is the truth?

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