What is the truth?

by OldSoul 78 Replies latest jw friends

  • OldSoul
    OldSoul

    Pontius Pilate asked, and now I'm asking. I've been reading many topics in here, now I am wondering... what is truth? I see where many of you have discovered that Jehovah's Witnesses don't have the truth. Okay. I'm both respectful and broadminded enough to allow for any other viewpoint, whether or not I agree. What should one of Jehovah's Witnesses replace their "falsely called knowledge" with? Where should they go away to, exactly?

    For instance:
    Is God a trinity?
    Does man have an immortal soul?
    Was Mary a virgin when she miraculously conceived Jesus?
    Does God exist?
    Is God omniscient?
    Does the Bible lie outrightly?
    Is God omnipresent?
    Although God's principled love is unconditional, are there conditions on God's friendship?
    Does it matter what we believe?
    Does it matter what we do?
    Is there any such thing as moral and immoral, right and wrong?
    If so, who sets the standard? Immanuel Kant?
    Is God a vindictive bastard bent on confusing and ultimately destroying humanity?
    Were we created?

    These are some of the basics I would need to know the answers to in order to choose to leave. There are many others besides these. Basically, I don't see any great light in here yet. I see a lot of ego stroking, there's plenty of welcoming others into the fold (which only seems bonded by moderate to intense dislike for an organization).

    I see much related to efforts of the WTBTS to silence those with differing opinions, so I'll be observing carefully how this is received.

    Hopefully someone here can help me figure out where the bitching about a past you never even wanted stops and where the Great Enlightenment starts. I invite anyone to respond, but I am particularly interested in the response of jst2laws.

    Respectfully,
    B_Ing Invisible

  • formerout
    formerout

    Welcome OldSoul,

    Hopefully you don't take that "welcome" as any sign that I am hoping to turn you against the WTBTS. My whole family is still in it. They need it in their lives for some reason. I don't.... simple as that.

    As far as what is the truth? The truth is different for everybody. My truth is not the same as anybody else's, however you seem to want some sort of opinion so I will oblige.

    The organizations or people that seem to most ABSOLUTELY know what the truth is seem to me to be the furthest from it. I try to have very few absolute opinions about anything. However one I really feel is absolute is that if I am nice to someone or "love" someone it feels better for me and gets better results for them than if I do the opposite.

    I think "God" is a part of us and every other being in the Universe. Any religions that teach that he is not a part of us seem to me to be missing the point. IMO this is what Jesus and other wise people have been meaning all along: Accept that me, you and everybody else is a part of and therefore worthy of being in God's presence.

    Brad

  • Doubtfully Yours
    Doubtfully Yours

    The truth is never absolute, but rather relative, depending on the circumstances.

    DY

  • formerout
    formerout

    DY,

    That's exactly what I meant! Very succintly put.

    Brad

  • OldSoul
    OldSoul

    Thanks for the welcome.

    I suppose you only answered one of the questions, but I'm not sure it is really answered. I'll try rephrasing what I read, and you tell me if I got it right. If I understand you correctly, does that mean any who converted to Christianity, or "The Way," from other belief systems wasted their efforts? Do you mean you would recommend leaving Jehovah's Witnesses alone with their pursuits because they seem to need it, but if others recommend destroying the entire organization their views are equally valid?

    In view of this confusing paradigm, I raise this question: In such a belief system, is the determination of right and wrong up to each individual?

    Respectfully,
    B_Ing Invisible

  • Gill
    Gill

    We will never know the truth.

    We do not know what is coming and we cannot understand what happened.

    We don't know why, because everyone's perspective is different and what exactly makes us individually so important that we deserve to know 'the truth' NOW because "NOW" is when WE happen to be alive.

    Every age believes that it's the 'end days'.

    When and if, it comes, well fair enough and if we only live to 'that end' to surviving it we become so self absorbed that we then don't deserve to survive it.

    The rest, the Trinity and all that sort of thing, does it really matter and if so why?

    It's possible to spend your whole life absorbed in irrelevancies and forget to live, just in case something does happen.

    Maybe there is NO TRUTH except be true to yourself and the rest will follow.

  • seven006
    seven006

    Oldsoul,

    Why don't you give us "your" definition of "Great Enlightenment" so we know where you are coming from? Why is it you particularly want Steve's opinion? Do you know him? Is it because of something you have read in one of his posts?

    What explanation of "truth" are you looking for? Bible based mythology vs scientific, historical, and archaeological evidence? Or, are you just looking for the best new religious product to buy into? Since you are trying to control your post by specify asking the opinion of a certain individual, I take it you would like our answers as controlled as your post. What is it exactly are you trying accomplish here?

    Respectfully back at you,

    Dave

  • OldSoul
    OldSoul

    Okay. If Gill is right, then this place is exactly what I thought it was. You may not know it, but many of you share some things in common besides a distaste for Jehovah's Witnesses, their teachings, and/or the WTBTS.

    Epicureanism, agnosticism, futilitarianism.

    Gill, you might argue with the last one, but if you keep asking yourself "To what end?" regarding your choices or your behavior, you will prove to yourself that you are a futilitarian. In an amoral system such as you describe there can be no good or bad, no right or wrong. formerout, Hitler was as much a part of God as you are, his choices equally valid.

    It seems to me that if the responses I have received are correct you would also have to admit that nothing anyone does matters. Since they are simply acting based on their truth, the truths of others are irrelevant. If nothing anyone does matters, then no one matters. I see that as a very bleak reality, indeed.

    Dave: Why don't you give us "your" definition of "Great Enlightenment" so we know where you are coming from?

    Hmm, okay.
    Great: remarkable in magnitude, degree, or effectiveness
    Enlightenment: having been furnished knowledge, or having been given spiritual insight

    So my definition (and Merriam-Webster's) of Great Enlightenment would be "having been furnished knowledge, or having been given spiritual insight to a remarkable degree, in remarkable magnitude, or in a way that is remarkably effective."

    Dave: What explanation of "truth" are you looking for?

    Any that you have to offer. Maybe Steve can clarify it more. You could say I knew him, yes. I would say I knew him far better than most people did. Maybe I still do know him.

  • BrendaCloutier
    BrendaCloutier

    OldSoul, welcome. Your questions are very good and show an intense desire to seek and understand truth, and even reality. I understand the need to replace one faith and set of doctrine with another.

    Personally, the only serious beef I have with the WTBTS in general is the extreme shunning, and the hush hush paranoia I've seen which has hurt many, many people. If someone wants to belong, that's their choice and business. I just suggest they explore without the rose-colored glasses, as you now appear to be doing.

    Me? I swung athiest/agnostic when I finally quit at about 21 years old due to the serious hypocrasies and abuses I saw in a congregation I moved into when I married (husband turned out to be a violent abusive alcoholic, and the elders told me it was my fault and responsibilty to stick with him). So I've been out for a while. Not DF'd or officially DA'd. Just out.

    It took me a long time to "come to believe" again. Much exploration and experience of christian and non-christian beliefs, including Native American spritualism, Buddhism, Bahai, some Islam, some Pagan, and some Unitarian, and AA's 12 steps.

    The only way anyone is going to be able to "know" for themselves is through exploration and experience. It takes time and energy and a willingness to subject one's self to things they may have avoided or abhorred before, with an open mind and heart. It also takes time, and not accepting one doctine's answers to the ultimate questions you ask.

    Here are my answers that I have come to believe:

    Is God a trinity? I used the YinYang to explain this to a Catholic I was once dating: One hand is God the Father, the other hand is God the Son, when combined, you have a total that is greater than the sum of it's parts, a "whole". The power of this whole is the Holy Spirit. Do I believe "God" is trine? I believe "God" and Christ are beyond anything we can ever conceive of or imaging due to our tiny brains and intellects. (Yes, I tentatively believe in the Christ)
    Does man have an immortal soul? I believe yes. My belief has been through exploration and experience. I also have come to believe in reincarnation. I have been here many many times. Some have been here only a few times, and are "younger souls". Some have moved beyond the need to return to earth.
    Was Mary a virgin when she miraculously conceived Jesus? I believe Mary, as a pre-pubescent girl was given/taken by the Essenes as possibly many of her similar linneage, to fulfill prophesy. Beyond ceremony and spiritual matters, I don't know. Maybe artificial insemination! It really doesn't matter to me.
    Does God exist? Yes! He resides at the core of the universes, and his power extends through the universes. "His" laws are simple: math, physics, gravity, magnetics, et.al. They can be temporarily altered (airflight, atom splitting) but they cannot be broken! Human laws and morality, including religious doctrine are just that: Human laws, and thereby subjective.
    Is God omniscient? Yes.
    Does the Bible lie outrightly? Hmm. Since I no longer use the bible as "god's word" since it contains so much of man's laws, I don't know and I don't care.
    Is God omnipresent? In that I believe god's power extends throughout all creation, Yes. But my bigger question is "does he care"?
    Although God's principled love is unconditional, are there conditions on God's friendship? No.
    Does it matter what we believe? I believe it matters less what we believe, than how we act. There are many roads that will take you to Chicago. It just depends on which one(s) you want to enjoy.
    Does it matter what we do? Yes! Most Definitely! I believe in Christs 3 commandments: Love god as no other (and by extension all of god's creation), Love your neighbor, as you, Love yourself. many of us forget or are not taught that last one.
    Is there any such thing as moral and immoral, right and wrong? Do no harm.
    If so, who sets the standard? Immanuel Kant? Why should a single man set the standard?
    Is God a vindictive bastard bent on confusing and ultimately destroying humanity? If "he" is, I would have put him out of his misery by offing myself years ago! So my answer is no. Back to a previous answer, does god care?
    Were we created? Creationism and Evolution theories are not mutually exclusive. I believe in the Big Bang as the inteligent source and engineering the universes. A top set to spinning. However, as motion and surroundings influence the path that the top takes, and so has evolution. "God" had an engineered plan or plans. That a species dies out or advances may or may not be part of this overall plan, but part of the process and the processes outside influences.

    I wish you the enlightenment you seek.

    Hugs

    Brenda

  • OldSoul
    OldSoul

    Brenda,

    Thank you for the thoughtful reply. Again, it seems that you express your "truth" while allowing me room for mine. I appreciate that respect, and I will not abuse it.

    I do have a question regarding your reply to "Is there any such thing as moral and immoral, right and wrong?". Isn't that a paradoxical reply, since we can never foreknow the outcome of our choices? I think Asimov explored that very paradox of Kant's Examples and Maxims in the Robot series. When I read that, my first thought was "Okay, R. Daneel... and how exactly do we determine what will and will not harm?"

    So, minus the tongue-in-cheek reference to a fantasy character, barring prescience how can anyone know what will or will not cause harm?

    Respectfully,
    B_Ing Invisible

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