A religion with nothing to Celebrate

by eyeslice 92 Replies latest jw friends

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  reniaa

  sorry my head isn't spinning Mary russel was early on in the faith when they still needed to let go of a lot of the pagan practises around them.

  Acts 7:41-43 (New International Version)

  41 That was the time they made an idol in the form of a calf. They brought sacrifices to it and held a celebration in honor of what their hands had made. 42 But God turned away and gave them over to the worship of the heavenly bodies. This agrees with what is written in the book of the prophets:
  " 'Did you bring me sacrifices and offerings
  forty years in the desert, O house of Israel?
  43 You have lifted up the shrine of Molech
  and the star of your god Rephan,
  the idols you made to worship.
  Therefore I will send you into exile' [ a ] beyond Babylon.

  I don't do christmas because it was a pagan festival (although that is only part of it) I mainly don't do Christmas because IT IS a pagan festival NOW! it is more about the God Santa than Jesus anymore and the badly fitting lie of Jesus is slowly being more shed each year as the celebration of Yule has reclaimed it's paganess in the eyes of the world something which Easter and hallloween had already done even more thoroughly. Any pretense of their original christian tags has long faded.

  Celebrations are nice things and I do do them as a witness but ones that have no paganess attached just days with friends and family. I recognise it is hard since I am an israelite living in egypt were all around me are having fun celebrating their particular festivals it is hard to see wrong in something that seems to give so much joy to young and old....but then I want to keep my worship to God pure and that includes not worshiping or eating at the tables of other Gods including Santa.
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  LUKEWARM

  Reinaa, do you know what the Watchtower originally taught about the origin of Christmas?
  
  In The Time is at Hand, Vol. 2 of the Studies in the Scriptures on page 61 it discusses the date of the birth of Christ. It says:
  
  "...we could not be certain that the exact day might not be in September about the 27 th , but October 1 st , B.C. is about correct. Nine months back of that date would bring us to about Christmas time, 3 B.C., as the date at which our Lord laid aside the glory which he had with the Father before the world was made and the taking of or changing to human nature began. It seems probable that this was the origin of the celebration of December 25 th as Christmas Day. Some writers on Church history claim, even, that Christmas Day was originally celebrated as the date of the annunciation by Gabriel to the virgin Mary."
  
  In other words, they agreed with Church history that the origin of Christmas was the celebration of the gift of God's son from his conception.
  
  Just because this conception happened around a pagan celebration does not make it pagan.
  
  In the December 15, 1903 Watchtower, Charles Russell wrote concerning Christmas that even though he did not agree with the date which he said wasn't important, he said:
  
  "..we may properly enough join with all whose hearts are in the attitude of love and appreciation toward God and toward the Saviour."
  
  The point is why does the WTS make such a big issue about December 25 - especially if one was to celebrate God's gift of his son without focusing on the commercial aspect?
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  reniaa

  hi lukewarm

  yes it's clear russell had to deal with cognitive dissonance over christmas the un-inspired watchtower from the early days you quote clearly shows the time when they were trying to deal bible teachings in relation to christendom's unbiblical teachings and practises around them. They were praying for holy spirit guidance and to get passed thousand of years of living under false teachings.

  Should they have everything revealed at once or would it be a gradual refining process?

  It's clear that major Jw teachings happened at that time and haven't changed but what has changed is throwing off the golden calf false worship that christendom had got into but it took time. the isrealites made a calf and called it god did it make it God? the christians took a pagan festival and called it Jesus's birthday did it make it Jesus's birthday? no.

  how much do we compromise our beliefs for the sake of gaining followers?dwxs xz b
• 

  Finally-Free

  it is more about the God Santa than Jesus anymore

  You're joking, right? In case you're not aware of it, most people know santa claus doesn't exist, and even the children who may believe in him don't call him a "god".

  In the case of celebrations, Jehovah's Witnesses love to shit on the celebrations of others because it makes them feel superior.

  Normal people practice tolerance, recognizing that everyone has the right to believe as they choose without interference.

  W
• 

  truthlover

  I wasnt brought up a JW but was baptized at 22, I had a xmas tree the first year, then none after, we always had family anniversaries, big meals, lots of family,friends, and during holdiays went to hotels with swimming pools, xercise rooms, game rooms and good food and friends - to give the kids a break too! Any special occassions like the kid getting a new car, etc. or a new used car I mean - was an occassion for a cake and congrats... bought them ski doos, trail bikes, guitar, etc. gave gifts wrapped - outside the ususal gift giving season...... its wasnt all bad - just had to use the mind to make it positive... and circumvent the negatives...
• 

  LUKEWARM

  It's clear that major Jw teachings happened at that time and haven't changed but what has changed is throwing off the golden calf false worship that christendom had got into but it took time. the isrealites made a calf and called it god did it make it God? the christians took a pagan festival and called it Jesus's birthday did it make it Jesus's birthday? no.
  
  how much do we compromise our beliefs for the sake of gaining followers?dwxs xz b

  I think you are missing the point Russell was making here Reinaa - it has nothing to do with compromise or the observing of pagan false teachings.
  
  Russell acknowledged that December 25th wasn't actually the date of Christ's birth, but felt that it really didn't matter. Here are some more quotes:
  
  "Christmas Day, in celebration of our dear Redeemer's birth, has for centuries been celebrated on Dec. 25; and although it is now well known that this date is in error...nevertheless, since the Lord has given no instructions whatever upon this subject, and since it is proper to do good deeds and think good thoughts upon any day, it cannot be improper, ...for us to remember in a social way our dear Redeemer's birth at this time."(Zion's WT, Dec. 15, 1898-pg.370).
  
  10 years later he states: "It matters not particularly that Dec. 25 is not the anniversary of our Lord's birth, according to the Scriptural account; that really He was born about September 25, nine months later. One day, as well as another, will serve us to commemorate our Savior's birth in the flesh, as a gift of God's love to a condemned and dying world."(Zion's WT, Dec. 15, 1908-pg.379).So the point is not about compromise, "increasing light", the pagan false teachings, or that it was not the actual birth date of Jesus but when the Scriptures are silent on a matter, then it should be left up to an individual's conscience to decide - something the WTS denies its members.
• 

  Mary

  Reniaa said: I don't do christmas because it was a pagan festival (although that is only part of it) I mainly don't do Christmas because IT IS a pagan festival NOW!

  You're full of shit Reniaa. You don't celebrate Christmas solely because the WTS says you can't. Charles Russell recognized that December 25th was not the day of Jesus' birth, yet he saw no reason why Christians couldn't celebrate it and encouraged everyone to which they did. When Rutherfraud clamped down on all the celebrations that brought joy to peoples hearts, the flock blindly followed him. In other words, they were following what MEN dictated, not what the bible says. The bible clearly states that the birth of Jesus was a joyous occassion both for mankind and the angels in heaven. It makes no difference what DATE you celebrate it on you brainless twit anymore than it would matter if you celebrated a wedding anniversary on October 31st or December 25th.

  Celebrations are nice things and I do do them as a witness

  Really? What celebrations are Witnesses allowed to partake in beside the Memorial (which 99.9% of those in attendance are not allowed to even partake of)? A wedding anniversary and that's about it. Funny that Witnesses do not equate celebrating the anniversary of your wedding as 'pagan' even though there are the 'rituals' that they condemn birthday celebrations for: the giving of gifts, the 'giving honor' to the couple for the day as well as the numerous 'pagan' rituals that go along with the wedding itself: the flowers the wedding veil, the honeymoon itself........but we won't talk about that will we lest it stir the braincells in your head to actually start to think.

  I recognise it is hard since I am an israelite living in egypt were all around me are having fun celebrating their particular festivals it is hard to see wrong in something that seems to give so much joy to young and old....but then I want to keep my worship to God pure and that includes not worshiping or eating at the tables of other Gods including Santa.

  And you "keeping your worship pure" includes posting regularly on an "apostate" website? Your notions are as wacky as they are muddle-headed. As per ususal Reniaa, you stick both feet in your mouth without thinking.

  
• 

  Will Power

  regarding celebrations.

  I always got the feeling that as more and more prophesies failed (among other wacky jw things were revealed over time), the more people questioned, and little by little disfellowshipping had to be used to control people & information.

  Birthdays, Christmas, Mother's day etc are a natural way to bring family and close friends together. In fact, could be an icebreaker that could lead to a breakdown of WT control. Years of shunning a child for example might disappear because of a heartfelt card, a moment of love weakness. "No mom, that's not what happened 20 years ago, this is how it was......

  No, no, can't take the chance. holidays are of the devil...

  wp
• 

  beksbks

  or eating at the tables of other Gods including Santa.

  Oohhhh I love Christmas!! I usually invite Santa to eat at my tables though, I am an excellent cook and put on quite a spread. I'm a real Goddess in the kitchen!
• 

  Heaven

  As my parents became more and more involved with the JWs, our family celebrations changed. This also coincided with us children growing up and moving away from home. Some celebrations were dropped as they were really designed for little kids (like Halloween and Easter (?)). Christmas became 'Gift Exchange' and was usually held on a day other than December 25th. This actually worked out well as our non-JW family would get to have their celebrations on the actual day (woohoo!).

  But my Mum became chronically ill and my parents decided to become baptized. Once this happened, they began withdrawing from us as we were 'worldly'. They stopped coming to my brother's kids birthdays and they stopped celebrating 'Gift Exchange'. We still got together for Thanksgiving but my parents didn't like us celebrating Mother's and Father's Day. That's ok. I still called them on those days to say 'Hi' and chat. They loved it!

  I will be calling my father on June 21st this year. If he says anything about I shouldn't be celebrating Father's Day I will tell him, "It's OK for me to call you on Father's Day. I'm not a Witness so I get to tell you that I am glad you're my Dad. And that I love you!" I don't think there is anything 'pagan' about Father's Day. The argument that they don't put people on a pedestal is bogus as that's what weddings do (which they celebrate) as well as the hierarchy within the whole WTS. At every meeting don't they have someone step up on a pedestal to give a talk? Isn't the GB/FDS on a huge pedestal? Sheesh!

  Regarding any pagan celebrations, I think this is a non-starter for the JWs. Until they get rid of their main pagan symbol 'The Watchtower', they really have no leg to stand on regarding ignoring paganism.