Well , the passage in question does seem to indicate a singular in the person of the devil . It's hard to say and I don't think it really matters as you have already said , the fact is that evil reigns the earth for a second time before being completely destroyed .
What is the true Christian religion / faith?
by evergreen 79 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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LittleToe
Terry:
I think we're on the same train of thought on this one - humans love their ideologies, and it's not limited to religion. Religion (in that context) is a symptom, not a root cause.
Btw, I love your limp baloon analogyHeathen:
What Flash said, though I prefer the term barbeque to torchSo what's your opinion on the frogs n stuff?
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heathen
LT --- I thought the frogs were a rock band of the 50's or 60's -------- LOL It's hard to say on that one , I know the WTBTS considers the frogs in revelation to be unclean expressions from the seven headed beast . I know God used frogs as a plaque on egypt in moses day and that the egyptians were able to produce frogs when challenging moses authority . In revelation it does explain that they are inspired expressions of demons that go out to the kings of the entire inhabited earth and gather them together for the war of the great day of God almighty .
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LittleToe
LOL @ rock band.
Is this the one you mean?:
http://www.scaruffi.com/vol5/frogs.html -
Flash
LT
So what's your opinion on the frogs n stuff?
Are you reading my posts?
I'll go with what Heathen said, it makes sense to me...LT
Flash: And the image of the WIld beast, and the prophet and the frogs (Rev.16:13, 14)?
The Wild Beast is the UN. The prophet and the frogs? I don't know.I know God used frogs as a plaque on egypt in moses day and that the egyptians were able to produce frogs when challenging moses authority . In revelation it does explain that they are inspired expressions of demons that go out to the kings of the entire inhabited earth and gather them together for the war of the great day of God almighty .
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Heathen
...the fact is that evil reigns the earth for a second time before being completely destroyed .
So sad it's nessasary. So many more will join the Rebellion and die. Then it will FINALY be over!
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heathen
looks like I had the wrong time frame but that is them alrighty lol . I had now idea they had such controversial music . Compared to Frank Zappa even , freaky stuff . I met Terri Bozzio who was Zappas drummer at guitar center last year . I watched his drum clinic , it was pretty cool .
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LittleToe
Alternatively there's a first century explanation for all of that symbology:
The Great Harlot (or city) that was burned is either Rome or Jerusalem (which was burned and looted) and for the sake of argument I'm going to favour the latter.
She sits on a Wild beast which is a broad and powerful Roman Empire, in the midst of seven hills (Aventine, Caehan, Capitohine, Esquihine, Palatine, Quimnal, and Viminal), fornicating with various kings.
She is also near the sea (Rev.18:17, 18), but potentially has no navy of her own.The Wild Beast is a direct spawn of Satan, as seen in the comparison between Rev.12:3 and Rev.13:1, and that the Dragon gives the Beast her authority. She comes up out of the sea (unruly people of the nations).
The second beast (Rev.13:11), which is also the false prophet (Rev.13:13; 19:20), tells the nations to make an image/idols of the wild beast. It then gives life to that image and impresses people to worhip it. This is probably the religious powers of the time, encouraging folks to make idols of the Emperors and worship them. She comes out of the earth (civilized people of an educated Empire). It has two horns like a lamb (similar to Christians, in demeanor - two main temples denoting peace? The Temple of the Vestal Virgins and the ARA PACIS, representing the Pax Romana) but speaks like a dragon (liar and slayer).
In Rev.14 the martyrs overcome (as was to be expected) and we hear that the great city (Jerusalem) has fallen after folks fleeing from her. After these events bowls are poured out onto the earth (Rev.15; 16) with the result that after the sixth bowl the frogs (demonic spirits) go forth from the Dragon (devil), wild beast (Roman Empire) and the second beast (Romanish religion).
The seventh bowl precedes the judgement, when the great city is remembered. This precedes the vision of Rev.17 where the Harlot, swathed in Purple and scarlet, is destroyed by the very empire that supported her.
Revelation 17:10 becomes pivotal at this point. The heads have been described as mountains and the horns are about to be described as a fullness of kingdoms that support the beast in it's last hour as it destroys the Harlot. This verse, however, appears as an insertion listing the kings or Caesars of the Romans Empire:
- Five fell - Julius, Augustus (Octavian), Tiberius, Gaius (Caligula), Claudius,
- Sixth is - Nero.
- Seventh is yet to be - Vespasian.
- The beast is the eighth - either Titus or Rome in general - who would destroy the Harlot.
It might be borne in mind that the Caesars were viewed as God/Men, so in the slaying of Julius the line still remained unbroken, though for a while it "was not" whilst Mark Antony, Lepidus and Octavian bickered. Alternatively this could relate to the burning of Rome under Nero, or any number of major events on the scene of that particular history. The death stroke must have been on one of the first six, however, as it describes the seventh and eighth as not being contemporary (even though it was likely written "after the fact").
If I recall correctly Irenaeus (2nd Cent.) identifies the numerology of 666 to potentially represent Titus.
The details would really depend on the perspective of the writer at the time of writing.
There's also an interesting bunch of parallels between Rev.9:1-11; 18:8; 20:1-3 which might be looked into, regardling the abyss.
Hippolytus (died circa 236AD) has a similar perspective on it, (though differing on some details) too:
http://ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-05/anf05-18.htm#P3417_1067439Now why am I mentioning all this (aside from the fact that Revelation was brought up on the thread)?
Merely to highlight that there's a wide variety of understanding of what the bible means. It's fascinating in it's own right, setting aside the religious connotations.
Does any one church or organization understand every part of it?
Nope - and it seems the WTS least of all! -
ozziepost
Does any one church or organization understand every part of it?
Nope - and it seems the WTS least of all!Ain't that the truth!!!
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heathen
LT --- I agree it's hard to interpret that kind of stuff . It's very abstract and definately symbolic . I know the baptist for one believe the beast with 666 on it's forhead is going to be a litteral person instead of a government . There are movies from the 700 club that portray a human being with super human satanic powers that takes control of the earth . Starring Michael York . I believe that part of revelation to be an end time scenario with the arrival of the messianic kingdom being the main focus . We know that the messianic kingdom did not remove the roman beast which is discussed in Daniel as a 4 headed leopard with 4 wings . What I find interesting is that the whore was portrayed as being dressed in purple and scarlet , these are the official colors of the catholic church . It is pretty obvious that babylon has not been bewailed as described in revelation .
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LittleToe
Purple and Scarlet were the colours of royalty, weren't they?
The Caesar's loved them, as have many monarchs.
You could even look at the British head of State - the Queen - to see the same colouration.Taking in the Daniel symbology, for a moment - what do you make of the image of various materials?
If the iron is Rome, do you see the feet as being the widespread dissolution of power into the nations?
If so, when did the kingdom start growing?I know of at least four interpretations:
- That it's yet to come, as the papacy is finally crushed at the big "A"
- That it started at the Reformation, when papal rule was eroded
- That it came in the time of Roman rule, when Messiah appeared
- That it was all fulfilled around Daniels day