Those big bad Bible Students

by RR 139 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  LittleToe

  Actually I'm genuinely curious about a couple of things, too:

  RR, you mention that you have no title for apostates, and tolerate those with different doctrine within the class, but how do the BS's deal with those who practice sin (and since the subject has been taken up, why don't we use adultery as an example)?

  Further, what labels DO you use, for those that leave the BS's?

  HS:

  I often think that Christ wasted himself on Christians

  Ouch. That hurts. Not least for the fact that it strikes to the heart of fact...
  Maybe the word "wasted" is inaccurate, but the gist of your statement is (I believe) correct.
• 

  ellderwho

  That was the gist of Rev. Robert C. Hill, Christian apologetic, who decided that there wasn't enough being done by the Christian community to combat the resurgence of "Russellism". He gave a talk a few years ago, at a "Witnesses for Jesus Now" an xjw convention, I was forced to attenmd by a Bible Student friend of mine who was curious. we were only there for a couple ofr hours during the intermission. One big WHINEFEST. The next day Hill gave his presentation on Bible Students. He at least did his homework and didn't confuse us with the JW

  RR, my fellow New Jerseyian,

  Are you refering to the convention at Blue Mountain Christian Retreat in PA held every third week of October.

  You describe it as "one big whinefest" how so?

  I agree LT

  E.
• 

  RR

  You seem to delight in the punishment meted out to this person by the WTS. I am not sure that this attitude is terribly commendable.

  No, I don't delight in sin. Now if the guy committed a sin in an act of weakness, one time, then I could see perhaps reaching out to him. But if he's an adulterer,having an affair, then that's another story, throw the bum out!!! As for those who say I'm being judgmental, well sorry you feel that wway. The Apostle Paul said that we areto judge one another in the congregation.

  I am still convinced it is a sub-conscious way of saying, "Thank God it is them and not myself".

  Well in my case, your wrong. I've comitted adultery adultery, nnever put myselfin that situation. I'vehad plenty of opportunities, but you see, there is something I fear far worse than disrespecting my wife, and that'sdisrespecting my heavenly Father.

  RR
• 

  RR

  Littletoe

  Actually I'm genuinely curious about a couple of things, too:

  RR, you mention that you have no title for apostates, and tolerate those with different doctrine within the class, but how do the BS's deal with those who practice sin (and since the subject has been taken up, why don't we use adultery as an example)?

  I've never known anyone to be DF'd or "apostasy". However, if it is known that a person is practicing sin, such as adultery, it will be investigated and the whole congregation sits as a judicial committee. Depending on the circumstances, the class may choose to DF the person. I have known of a few cases where this happened. However, we don't busybody into people's affairs, like the JW's do.

  Further, what labels DO you use, for those that leave the BS's?

  Well, we don't have an official lingo like the JW's do and we don't toss those who leave into second death. Since only those who consecrate and sin against the holy spirit are guilty of second death. And of course only those who deny Jesus, can fall into such a group. Thus when someone begins to study/fellowship with us and then disappear or leave, it is a general thought that "they were not called of the Lord" or perhaps they counted the cost (of consecration) and the cost was too high. So we will see them in the kingdom as perfect human beings.

  If they consecrated and profess to be spirit begotten and leave, I believe the general view is that they are now in the great company class, which is a secondary spiritual class in heaven who fell short of their crowns or "crown losers". However, you'd find it hard press to get anyone actual one of their brethren as such. Since only the Lord knows for sure who goes where. Of course as in all groups, you have extremist.

  RR
• 

  RR

  Are you refering to the convention at Blue Mountain Christian Retreat in PA held every third week of October.

  Yep!

  You describe it as "one big whinefest" how so?

  Hmmm ... Let's see .... I went there for one reason and one reason only. To put faces to names. About 30 or my old AOL chatroom buddies weere there, including DocBob, whom I've met on afew occassions and eeven attended a few Bible Student conventions.

  We were there for about half a day. And allwe so were people whiningabout their life in the Watchtower Society. Here you have people saying the Society is one big money making scheme and there were bookstables everywhere by the likes of David Reed and Duane Maganani and others sellling their books. The biggest insult was to have an athiest lead the praise and worship service, and everyone including the sponsors seemed pleased with that! It wasa mockery!

  RR
• 

  LittleToe

  RR:I appreciate your candor.

  So you do have a DF'ing policy then. How is that implimented in the way that the BS's deal with the DF'ed individual (lets stick with the case of an adulterer / adultress, shall we)?

  And for balance, since I'm not trying to take this down a negative route, how would said member find their way back?

  Further, how would you deal with one of the company (maybe an Elder, for arguments sake) who left and was found (though conversation with one of the brethren) to have turned their back on Christ?

  Also, is it made clear (when one joins a class) the contents of said policies?
• 

  GermanXJW

  @RR: Are there BS that believe in the Trinity?
• 

  RR

  RR:I appreciate your candor.

  Thank you

  So you do have a DF'ing policy then. How is that implimented in the way that the BS's deal with the DF'ed individual (lets stick with the case of an adulterer / adultress, shall we)?

  Yes, we do and in my years with the Bible Students I only know of a handful of cases inj various congregations. For the most part, unless what someone is doing is affecting the spirituality of the congregation, nothing is ever done. I know of a case where a couple got divorced, and each one remarried. The wife very active with the church, the hubby, not active. Other than a little animosity between families (which is understandable) nothing was done. Both left the class and attended other classes.

  Another couple, left the class when they moved, ten years later the wife returned married to someone else. She got an unscriptural divorced. Some in the congregation felt she was living in sin and wanted her disfellowshipped. A hearing was made and it was decided she couldn't undo what was done. But it did leave some scars. The class eventually split over this issue. She knew what she did was wrong, and she was willing to just sit in the back and listen in on the studies. Her new hubby, not a Bible Student was impressed with the way things were handled, he consecratedand got baptized, now he's in, and she's not.

  Just because a class as a wholemay decide to DF someone, that does not barr the members as individuals from talking to her. That is a personal matter. The DFing simply states that the person is no longer a part of the class. No one is ostracized or DF'd because they associated with a DF'd person.

  And for balance, since I'm not trying to take this down a negative route, how would said member find their way back?

  I would assume a simple act of repentance. Making it known that you made a mistake, you are sorry and want to come back and fellowship. We are not heart readers,so we have to assume that if you profess repentance that it is geniune. We do not investigate the individuals, require them to come to all meetings. A person walk with the Lord is theirs and their alone. Now of course, we are an association made up of individuals, and individuals act differently. So I can't speak for everyone.

  Further, how would you deal with one of the company (maybe an Elder, for arguments sake) who left and was found (though conversation with one of the brethren) to have turned their back on Christ?

  If it were found to be true? That's between him and the Lord, out of sight out of mind. Know what I mean? We don't go after individuals, if they leave, they leave.

  Also, is it made clear (when one joins a class) the contents of said policies?

  No, we don't go over 120 questions before someone fellowships with us. You see, when one consecrates, it's not joining the class or a group, it's becoming prospective members of the body of Christ.
• 

  RR

  @RR: Are there BS that believe in the Trinity?

  I don't know of any who do. Now it should be noted that there are certain groups out there who have the term "Bible Students" in their name that are not part of our group. Pentecostal Bible Students Association, Apostolic Bible Students Association, etc. There is also the Christian Millennial Fellowship, who are started out as Bible Students but have abandoned Pastor Russell and the Divine Plan. Although not trinitarians, they put less stress on doctrine and more stress on Christ and love, and have become a sort of ecumenical movement. They'll accept anyone into their fellowship regardless of what they believe. THus when their conventions, you'll run into people who ARE trinitarians, and hellfire believers or that the earth will be burned up. RR
• 

  LittleToe

  Although I can't say that I agree with the BS's doctrinally, I do have to say that threads like this show how far Rutherford (et al) took their religion away from that originally envisaged.

  I found a similar kind of "discipline" in churches that I've attended. I know (personally) of one man who is a chronic alcoholic and has had a direct effect on his families physical, emotional and spiritual wellbeing. He had his "membership" taken away, but is actively sought out to encourage, at church, home, etc. (though not against his wishes).

  I think you have a hard job on your hands being an apologist for Russell, given his statements about the necessity of "Studies in the Scriptures", but it's still seems a far cry from the "high-control" behaviour of the JW's.

  You see, when one consecrates, it's not joining the class or a group, it's becoming prospective members of the body of Christ.

  How do you view others who haven't "consecrated" and yet claim to be members of the "body of Christ" (for example in various other denominations)?

  Can you also give me a list of the various "class distinctions" that you make? You've alluded to a few here, but I'm also curious as to whom you label such (setting aside the obvious "Christ will judge" exclaimers).