by RR 139 Replies latest jw friends
RR,
Just as a matter of curiosity.
The JW's rightly come under a lot of criticism, both from former members and those who take the trouble to research its methodology, for being at best a high-control religion and at worst a fanatical cult.
What defence would you mount that would counter the Bible Students being placed into the same category as noted above?
Best regards - HS
What defence would you mount that would counter the Bible Students being placed into the same category as noted above?
I personally don't have a problem with it. Watchman Fellowship and others so called cult awareness groups have been monitoring the Bible Students for some years. We're a cult simply because of what we believe, denying the trinity ffor one.
I remember years ago, Randy Watters toldme he didn't view Bible Students as a cult, simply because he wasn't looking at the new definition but the origonal definition. He wasn't looking at theology but the relationship. Bible Students are a very free group. No one is forced to believe what they don't want to.
We don't take roll call, and label people, granted since the movement is made up of individuals, you'll always have extremist, who feel very strongly about what they believe, even those who put Russell on a pedestal.
I think the major problem I have is that many confuse the two groups BS's and JW's. Believing their the same, or teach the same things. Historians and others are begining to see a difference. Even certain encyclopedia have made a distinction. Labeling Russell as the founder of the Bible Students, and not the JW's. As long as they get the information right, I don't care what people think of me of my beliefs. Just don't belittle what you have no knowledge of.
RR
Some years ago I attended Bible Student services for a couple of months. I found them to be friendly and hospitable. Unlike the JWs the Bible Students that I associated with were very tolerant of others. Though this group was affiliated with the Dawn they frequently attended the conventions of other Bible Student groups and often subscribed to their publications. I am happy that I spent some time with the Bible Students. Though brief, it was also a rewarding stop on my spiritual journey.
Thank you for your fine posts, RR. I've found them to be very informative.
RR,
I personally don't have a problem with it. Watchman Fellowship and others so called cult awareness groups have been monitoring the Bible Students for some years. We're a cult simply because of what we believe, denying the trinity ffor one.
That is an interesting reply.
So you have no problem with the Bible Students being defined in the terms of a high control religion, or a cult? Cults and high control religions seem to have less to do with beliefs and more to do with methodology. In fact often the theology, as with the JW's is relatively unimportant against the backdrop of the 'Governing Body speak for God' methodology. Cults and high control religions have historically a record of the abuse of an individual rights, I am sure you would never agree to the Bible Students being tarred with such a brush?
I suspect that the Bible Students draw the ire of many XJW's because they do see Russell as the source of their problems. Without Russell there would never have been a Rutherford, without Rutherford there would never have been a WTS and without the WTS there would never have been spiritual and emotional imprisonment. Russell made the WTS possible, perhaps even probable.
It is clear that Rutherford illegally took over the Bible Students business and religious interests in an devious and these days imprisonable method, but is is also clear that the shadows cast by the Bible Students and the WTS do often cross each other in a worrying way.
I know that you are an elder with the Bible Students, were you an elder with the JW's? If you were, how would you say that the exercise of your responsibilities differ? For example, how do you define and then treat 'apostates'?
This is a fact finding missing for me RR, I assure you I have no judgements to hand out other than those based on fact.
Best regards - HS
Excellent questions HS.
I hope that you keep pressing RR. He hates it when one-liners dont shrug off the difficult questions he has to answer, all the while attacking the ridiculous JW dogma and proceeding Rutherford era which came from the Russellite wellspring.
You've stepped in another pile of sh!t RR with the bible students. If you were a nice and non judgmental person (Im only saying that because of your recent sickening post on adultery), maybe I might be drawn to your next cult, but you have consistently proved otherwise.
Why cant you answer minimus' viewpoints head on, especially when he met your demands? Since you view us as proselytes, why not come up with more than what you would consider a snappy comeback.
God I miss how Mad Apostate used to spank your ass.
Dino
I wanted to add that I wish I was half as polished as my good friend HS.
Or should I say tactful.
Dino
HS:
So you have no problem with the Bible Students being defined in the terms of a high control religion, or a cult? Cults and high control religions seem to have less to do with beliefs and more to do with methodology. In fact often the theology, as with the JW's is relatively unimportant against the backdrop of the 'Governing Body speak for God' methodology. Cults and high control religions have historically a record of the abuse of an individual rights, I am sure you would never agree to the Bible Students being tarred with such a brush?
NO, I don't have a problem, I know it's not true, my brethren know it's not true, anyone informed knows it's not true. People will always bel;ieve what they want.
I suspect that the Bible Students draw the ire of many XJW's because they do see Russell as the source of their problems.
True, many xjw's out of ignorance blame Russell for everything. But many jw's and xjw's who have taken the time to research have seen the contrast between the two organizations bs's and jw's and have left the jw's for the bs's.
Without Russell there would never have been a Rutherford, without Rutherford there would never have been a WTS and without the WTS there would never have been spiritual and emotional imprisonment. Russell made the WTS possible, perhaps even probable.
That may be true. Why not go further and blame it on Jesus? If Jehovah had not sent His Son to earth, he would have founded Christianity, because Christinaity founded the Watchtower Society.
It is clear that Rutherford illegally took over the Bible Students business and religious interests in an devious and these days imprisonable method, but is is also clear that the shadows cast by the Bible Students and the WTS do often cross each other in a worrying way.
No argument from me!
I know that you are an elder with the Bible Students, were you an elder with the JW's? If you were, how would you say that the exercise of your responsibilities differ? For example, how do you define and then treat 'apostates'?
There are no "apostates" in the Bible Student movement. At least we don't label people in that way. You'd be surprised. We have people who believe in the presence some who do not, others who totally reject the chronology, and others who have devised new ones. There are opther differences. Often at conventions we have panel discussions to discuss these issues with the whole audience participating, by asking questions.
In my area in New Jersey, we have four congregations that get together twice a year, it's called a "4 ecclesia question meeting", each ecclesia submits a question on whatever issue, one elder of each class espouses on it for 15, 20 minuts, then at the end the audience ask questions whether to a specific eler on what he aid or just a average question for the body.
The worst thing that can happen, should a person have differing views, is that a congregation would never elect him to the position of eldership. SInce it is the congregation that nominates and elects who should serve in the congregation. And rightfully so, I wouldn't want someone teaching me hat I myself do not believe. Now every congregation is different, I know of some that have elders who have differing views and it makes for interesting studies.
So to put it simple, we don't disfellowship anyone because they have a different view. In my experience with bs's I have found that those who have differing views, eventually in time leave on their own and join another class to their liking.
RR
Dino
I hope that you keep pressing RR. He hates it when one-liners dont shrug off the difficult questions he has to answer, all the while attacking the ridiculous JW dogma and proceeding Rutherford era which came from the Russellite wellspring.
I think you misread me. I don't mind sincere questions.
You've stepped in another pile of sh!t RR with the bible students. If you were a nice and non judgmental person (Im only saying that because of your recent sickening post on adultery), maybe I might be drawn to your next cult, but you have consistently proved otherwise.
Could you enlighten me as to my "recent sickening post on adultery"?
Why cant you answer minimus' viewpoints head on, especially when he met your demands? Since you view us as proselytes, why not come up with more than what you would consider a snappy comeback.
He hasn't met my demands. I have no demands, just the facts. I'm not going to sit here and debate every little detail of his differences. I don't know Minimus, I don't know what he believes, I don't even knows if he believe in God or Christ or the Bible. I only know what he doesn't believe since he makes that pretty clear. Hard to have dialog withs omeone who doesn't share what he believes.
God I miss how Mad Apostate used to spank your ass.
I don't recall!
RR,
This is what Dino is talking about.
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/11/75561/1217742/post.ashx#1217742
Low down dirty thing to say if you ask me.
:I think you misread me. I dont mind sincere questions.
JW Speak. Sorry! You dont really address anything!
:Could you enlighten me as to my"recent sickening post on adultery"?
As you can see, others are have taken note of your self righteousness and continued JW speak!
Thanks unbeliever for posting the link for me.
As for minimus, more jw speak, wrapped up in new BS speak.
He hasn't met my demands. I have no demands, just the facts. I'm not going to sit here and debate every little detail of his differences. I don't know Minimus, I don't know what he believes, I don't even knows if he believe in God or Christ or the Bible. I only know what he doesn't believe since heIf you are going to proseletyze effectively, so what? Did that stop us from knocking at someone's door because we didnt fully know their situation beforehand? In addition, when someone asked us to defend our beliefs, how effective was it if we demanded on their own porch what their belief system was? That usually resulted in us getting kicked off the property! No sale there, but plenty of JW speak! Something you have not left behind. :I dont recall Puhleeese. You really havent forgotten your JW roots now have you? Dinomakes that pretty clear. Hard to have dialog withs omeone who doesn't share what he believes.
