All About The Trinity

by UnDisfellowshipped 287 Replies latest watchtower bible

zen nudist

Exodus 20:7: Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

calling someone MY LORD has nothing to with ex 20, which does not say Adon or Adonai in hebrew but YHWH or Jehovah and using that name in vain is what the commandment forbids... the term lord is used as a common term of respect to kings, gentlemen, property owners etc... just as it is today, and is equivelant to Master or Mr as a title.a major point, you still ignore is that you have never responded to my 3 witnesses from heaven. Daniel saw the ANCIENT of DAYS and the son of MAN, Stephen saw Jesus at the right hand of God and John saw the LORD GOD ALMIGHTY and the lamb.... all three witnesses see the very same thing as far as I can tell, ONE who is GOD and one who is NOT....they never confuse this... so no matter how many ambiguous and out of context verses you throw at me, you have nothing until you deal with the statement of the witnesses who claimed to see the heavenly reality.
hooberus

a major point, you still ignore is that you have never responded to my 3 witnesses from heaven. Daniel saw the ANCIENT of DAYS and the son of MAN, Stephen saw Jesus at the right hand of God and John saw the LORD GOD ALMIGHTY and the lamb.... all three witnesses see the very same thing as far as I can tell, ONE who is GOD and one who is NOT....they never confuse this... so no matter how many ambiguous and out of context verses you throw at me, you have nothing until you deal with the statement of the witnesses who claimed to see the heavenly reality.
zen, can God be in more than one place at a time?
Your three instances do not provide proof that that they saw "ONE who is God and one who is NOT" , But rather that they saw a manifestation of God the Father, and near him another person with a title of humanity (called for example "the Son of Man").
Such verses are an affirmation that:
1. That the Father is God (something that Trinitarians believe).
2. That Jesus is a distinct person from the Father (something that Trinitarians believe).
3. That Jesus is still human in heaven, hense the phrase "Son of Man" (something that Trinitarains believe, and that some unitarians deny).
The verses are not proof that Jesus is "NOT" God, but rather that Jesus is a man near God the Father. (in full agreement with trinitarian doctrine). Such verses are an affirmation of the diety, of the Father, and of the humanity of the Son.
These verses only become a denial that Jesus is not also God (in addition to being man) if one or more of the following assumptions (which I believe are faulty) are held:
1. That the one God can only be in one place at a time.
2. That the one God must also exist as a unipersonal being. Thus if the person of the Father is called God then no one else with him can also be the same God (the asumption of unitarianism).
3. That Jesus must exist in only one nature. Thus verses which show him to be a man by nature, prove then He cannot also be God by nature (the assumption that Christ must have only one nature.)
4. That even if it is hypothetically possible for Christ to have more then one nature, that He must always be called by titles for each nature, in the same passages. Thus verses which show him to be called by human terms such as "Son of Man", are an argument against him also being God since He is not also called God (or an equivalent) in these same passages (the assumption of the argument from silence regarding titles).
UnDisfellowshipped

Ellderwho said:
Whose choice? ours or Gods??
Everything is God's choice.
My point is, that if the Bible says that God chooses to allow people to choose to reject Him, then who am I to say otherwise?
God chose to allow Adam and Eve freedom to choose sin or to choose not to sin. Either that, or the entire "test" with the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil was a fraud, and so was God's promise of living forever if they obeyed Him.
I agree that God KNEW that Adam and Eve would choose to sin when He created them, but to say that God created Adam and Eve WITHOUT freedom to choose whether to sin would be crediting God with evil and with creating evil and sin.
The Bible shows that the Devil is the originator of sin and death, not God.
The Bible shows that God hates sin, cannot stand sin, must be separated from sin, is absolutely HOLY. So, there is no way that God created Adam in such a way that Adam HAD to sin without freedom to choose.
God chooses who he wants to "draw" to His Son, and then He sends The Spirit to enlighten them with the truth of the Gospel. Then, the person makes a choice -- either repent and believe in Jesus and be saved, OR reject and deny Jesus and go to Hell.
About pre-destination:
The Bible shows that there is a Book of Life that was "written from the foundation of the world":
Revelation 17:8: The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
Revelation 13:8: And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
However, if you read the other Scriptures about this "Book of Life", you will see clearly that Jesus can indeed REMOVE people's names who were once on this "Book of Life":
Revelation 3:5: He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
Jesus promises only those "who overcome" that He will not blot out their names from The Book of Life.
What does "overcome" mean to a Christian? It means being Born Again:
1st John 5:4-5: For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith. Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?
Exodus 32: 33: And the LORD said to Moses, "Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book.
So, people can indeed be "blotted out" from The Book of Life, even though their names were once written in it.
This shows that people who have been "enlightened" can be blotted out, IF they have not "overcome" by being Born Again.
UnDisfellowshipped

Here is another Scripture for all you Non-Trinitarians to discuss!
Luke 8:38-39: Now the man from whom the demons had departed begged Him that he might be with Him. But Jesus sent him away, saying, "Return to your own house, and tell what great things God has done for you." And he went his way and proclaimed throughout the whole city what great things Jesus had done for him.
And another one:
Luke 17: 15-19: And one of them, when he saw that he was healed, returned, and with a loud voice glorified God, and fell down on his face at His feet, giving Him thanks. And he was a Samaritan. So Jesus answered and said, "Were there not ten cleansed? But where are the nine? Were there not any found who returned to give glory to God except this foreigner?" And He said to him, "Arise, go your way. Your faith has made you well."
UnDisfellowshipped

Herk said in a different Thread:
If Jesus was God in the same way the Father is God, . . . He would not have said "I am the way" but "I am the ultimate goal."
Jesus IS The Ultimate Goal:
Titus 2:13-15: looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works. Speak these things, exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no one despise you.
John 14:3: And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.
zen nudist

These verses only become a denial that Jesus is not also God (in addition to being man) if one or more of the following assumptions (which I believe are faulty) are held:
1. That the one God can only be in one place at a time.
assuming God is real, why assume more than anything written about him? there is nothing in the bible which says that God can be in more than one place at any time, other than by means of angels...which rove about the earth acting as the eyes of God, mentioned in several places.-- if God could be more than one place at a time, why mention these angelic "eyes"
2. That the one God must also exist as a unipersonal being. Thus if the person of the Father is called God then no one else with him can also be the same God (the asumption of unitarianism).
when the bible says before ME there was no god formed and after ME there continued to be none, I, I alone am God... that is in context with all the false gods, but it is also in the singular...it does not say WE or US as if there were more than one PERSON as the main GOD.... trinitarians claim 3 who's and 1 what...but clearly there is only ONE who which is seen as THE GOD and while the heavenly court, the beni-elohim are also called gods, it is always understood by jews that they are part of GOD's group apart from the false gods and only one of the Elohim, YHWH is THE BOSS, the main guy, etc.
3. That Jesus must exist in only one nature. Thus verses which show him to be a man by nature, prove then He cannot also be God by nature (the assumption that Christ must have only one nature.)
the arguement of natures is not something anyone can really say much about, but it does say that Jesus, prior to coming to earth, was the same as God [and the angels] in being a spirit entity of some sort [phil 2] but that when he came to earth he EMPTIED himself of that nature and took on the nature of a servant...and where else does it say otherwise, where does it say he has two natures at the same time?
4. That even if it is hypothetically possible for Christ to have more then one nature, that He must always be called by titles for each nature, in the same passages. Thus verses which show him to be called by human terms such as "Son of Man", are an argument against him also being God since He is not also called God (or an equivalent) in these same passages (the assumption of the argument from silence regarding titles).
As to titles, there is never one instance where Jesus and God are spoken of together as equals that I am aware....the FATHER is always seen as God in relationship to Jesus...and Jesus even calls him MY God and Your God....so who is Your God? is it the same ONE who is the God of Jesus, or someone else? Paul says to US there is only ONE God, the FATHER. [1 cor 8:5-6] and never does he say as clearly anything like that about any other god[s] nor does he ever say Jesus is our God...does he?
ellderwho

My point is, that if the Bible says that God chooses to allow people to choose to reject Him, then who am I to say otherwise?

Undisfellowshipped,
The Bible does not teach that God gives humans the choice once drawn.
Jesus clearly states no one can come to me unless given by the Father, then Jesus states all that the Father has given me none will be lost.
Their is no room for your choice. And the scriptures do not teach some sort of "limbo time period"where one can ponder this drawing. It just not in scripture.
God will use us as he pleases. To do his will. We are simply the clay.
Your position creates certain exceptions to your own theology. And in the end, it all does not "fit together."
A thought; Fact is, it is not in our nature to seek God. Your saying once we are "enlightened" we can make a "choice" but the fact still remains its not in our nature to seek him.
Its like a Lion that has a bowl of oats put in front of him. Will the Lion eat it? Can the Lion eat it?
The obvious answer is NO. But why? Sure the Lion can chew on the oats, though it would be dry.
The Lion will not eat the oats because, its not in his nature. He just will not do it.
Just like us, we will not choose God,even when given the choice.
The Bible shows that the Devil is the originator of sin and death, not God.
Who created Lucifer? Did Lucifer catch God off gaurd?
This is interesting;
God chooses who he wants to "draw" to His Son, and then He sends The Spirit to enlighten them with the truth of the Gospel.
What is"it"that does the drawing?
Please dont say "active force"
E
UnDisfellowshipped

This is one last question for Herk (who appears to have left this Thread for good):
WHO is the Logos (The Word) in John Chapter 1?
John 1:1-3 and 14 and 16 & 17 (NKJV): I n the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. [...] And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth. [...] And of His fullness we have all received, and grace for grace. For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
UnDisfellowshipped

Zen Nudist claimed that the Bible does not teach that God is omnipresent, but here are just a few Verses that do indeed teach that: Psalm 139: 7-10: Where can I go from Your Spirit? Or where can I flee from Your presence? If I ascend into heaven, You are there; If I make my bed in hell, behold, You are there. If I take the wings of the morning, And dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea, Even there Your hand shall lead me, And Your right hand shall hold me. John 3:13: And no one has gone up into Heaven except He who came down out of Heaven, the Son of Man, who is in Heaven. Matthew 18:20: For where two or three are gathered together in My Name, I am there in their midst." Matthew 28:20: teaching them to observe everything that I have commanded you; and look, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen. John 14:18-23: I will not leave you orphans; I am coming to you. "Yet a little while and the world will see Me no more, but you will see Me. Because I live, you will live also. In that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you. He that has My Commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me shall be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will manifest Myself to him." Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, and what has happened that You are about to manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?" Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and we will make Our home with him.
UnDisfellowshipped

Ellderwho said:
Jesus clearly states no one can come to me unless given by the Father, then Jesus states all that the Father has given me none will be lost.
I agree with that, except that Judas, whom The Father had "given" Jesus did indeed fall away to Hell (whether he had free choice or not), which shows that there can be exceptions to the rule.
Ellderwho said:
Their is no room for your choice. And the scriptures do not teach some sort of "limbo time period"where one can ponder this drawing. It just not in scripture.
Are you are saying that Jesus does not give people "time to repent"? What does Jesus Himself say?
Revelation 2: 21-22 (NKJV): And I gave her time to repent of her sexual immorality, and she did not repent. Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds.
What does that Scripture mean? I want to hear your explanation of it. That is our Lord Jesus Christ Himself speaking.
Jesus said that He had given someone "time to repent", but that she "did not repent", and that "unless they repent", He was going to destroy them. What does that mean?
Ellderwho said:
Who created Lucifer?
The same God who created all things -- YHWH (The Lord Jesus Christ).
But how did God create Lucifer? I'll let the Bible answer:
Ezekiel 28:12-17: ... 'Thus says the Lord G od : " You were the seal of perfection, Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. You were in Eden, the garden of God; Every precious stone was your covering: The sardius, topaz, and diamond, Beryl, onyx, and jasper, Sapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold. The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes Was prepared for you on the day you were created. " You were the anointed cherub who covers; I established you; You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones. You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, Till iniquity was found in you. " By the abundance of your trading you became filled with violence within, And you sinned; Therefore I cast you as a profane thing Out of the mountain of God; And I destroyed you, O covering cherub, From the midst of the fiery stones. " Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty; You corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor; I cast you to the ground, I laid you before kings, That they might gaze at you.
John 8:44: You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.
Did God create Lucifer in such a way that Lucifer HAD to sin? Obviously not according to those Verses. God did not ever WANT Lucifer to sin, but God knew that he would sin.
Also, Jesus Himself stated that SATAN is the FATHER of the lie (and thus sin), and that Satan spoke lies on his own (in other words, lies originated with Satan, not God).
Ellderwho said:
Did Lucifer catch God off gaurd?
No. God knows all things -- past, present, and future. God knew that Lucifer would sin. God knew that Adam and Eve would sin.
That's not my point.
My point is that God DID NOT create Lucifer as a robot who was PROGRAMMED to sin and do evil. God created Lucifer with the freedom to choose whether or not to sin and do evil, even though God knew what choice he would make.
There is a big difference between allowing someone the freedom to choose to sin, and creating them in such a way that they MUST SIN.
James 1:13-15: Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.
Also, Ellderwho, what is your explanation of being "enlightened by The Spirit"?
Is being "enlightened by The Spirit" and "having the knowledge of the truth" (found in Hebrews Chapters 6 and 10 and 2nd Peter Chapter 2) the same as being Born Again?
If it is the same as being Born Again, then that means Born Again Christians can lose their salvation. But then, that would contradict 1st John.
If it is not the same as being Born Again, then what is it?

All About The Trinity

Share this