All About The Trinity (page 12)

UnDisfellowshipped

Ellderwho said:

What part of the above statement indicates "a person must have "saving faith" --as his ONLY WAY to Salvation
By that reasoning your flesh is giving birth to your Spirit.

No, The Father must first "draw" a person to Jesus, then The Holy Spirit "enlightens" that person, allowing them to understand the Gospel, then that person must make a decision of whether to put his faith in Jesus for salvation.

Also, I do not believe in the concept of God forcing people to be saved, first of all, because the Bible shows that Jesus WANTED to save the Pharisees, but THEY would not have it:

Matthew 23:37: "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!

herk

UnDisfellowshipped,

I'm sorry but that is the biggest hypocritical statement I have seen in a long time!
This, coming from a person who once accused me of "being on drugs" and an intentional liar and deceiver, and made several, several personal attacks and insults against me in at least three different Threads, including several in this Thread.
Not to mention that Herk has ignored at least 5 or 6 very important questions I asked in this Thread and that other Trinity Thread.

May I suggest that your memory is a bit faulty and that you're a bit upset over nothing? If you prefer not to discuss the subject matter at hand, it might be best to say nothing than try to pick a fight. I'm eager to fight false teaching, and I feel strongly that the Trinity is a doctrine of demons. But though I feel those who believe in it have been deluded by false teachers, God is my witness that I have absolutely no hatred in my heart for such people.

herk

Deleted by poster.

herk

Deleted by poster.

herk

UnDisfellowshipped,

Not to mention that Herk has ignored at least 5 or 6 very important questions I asked in this Thread and that other Trinity Thread.

The following are questions I've raised in this thread that you have not yet dealt with:

If the Trinity is such an important doctrine, why is there not even one speech or chapter in the entire Bible that discusses the subject in context?
Where in the Bible are we told that God is three Persons in One Nature?
Where in the Bible are we told that Christ is a God-Man with two natures?
If knowledge of the Trinity is necessary for salvation, why is it that the average Christian finds it confusing and cannot explain it?
Why do Trinitarians blame others when the real cause of confusion regarding the Trinity is their own disagreements and lack of logic when explaining their doctrine?
Where in the Bible does it clearly say, as you claim, that Jesus and the Holy Spirit bear the name Yahweh?
Why do you try to explain the Trinity with the oneness that exists between a husband and wife? Persons remain separate beings when they marry, but the plural members of the Trinity are said to be One Being.
Why do Trinitarians insist that John 10:30 means one God (one divine Being) but that John 17:11 means one in unity (not one being)? Jesus specifically said the oneness of his followers was exactly the same as the oneness between himself and his Father--"as we are."
Where do Trinitarians obtain authority to say that "God" sometimes means only the Father or the Son and at other times means all three members of the Trinity?

herk

Deputy Dog

UnDisfellowshipped Matthew 23:37 does not say that God wanted to save the Pharisees. It does say that Jesus wanted to gather together her children. Why do you want to portray Jesus as a frustrated God? He can and does save whom ever and when ever He wants, regardless of the will of the Pharisees. If you are going to bind Gods' will you need to have a better scripture than this! D Dog

ellderwho

Herk,

I have asked you on different threads and this one, who created the Heavens and Earth.

You have simply ignored the question. All your time "copy and paste" diagrams to prove from other sources that the trinity should not be believed. With that said and the questions posed to you, what is the non-trinitarians explantion of 'who created the Heavens and Earth?

What is the non-trinitarians explanation of "who raised Jesus from the Dead"?

Jn.12:45And he that beholdeth me beholdeth him that sent me.

7If ye had known me, ye would have known my Father also: from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. 8Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us. 9Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and dost thou not know me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; how sayest thou, Show us the Father? 10Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I say unto you I speak not from myself: but the Father abiding in me doeth his works. 11Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works? sake.

Is Jesus an imposter? Or should Jesus' have said "he that beholdeth me beholdeth Yahweh"?

Or maybe Jesus should have said "If you've seen me you've seen Yahweh"

Is Jesus an imposter?

Phl.2:6 who, existing in the form of God, counted not the being on an equality with God a thing to be grasped,

herk

ellderwho,

You have simply ignored the question.

I've answered your question in other threads. I'm a working person, and I answer as I have time. Some of my questions have also been ignored. But I anticipate a response patiently.

All your time "copy and paste" diagrams to prove from other sources that the trinity should not be believed.

In most cases, my drawings, etc., are Bible-based. I've been a careful Bible student all my life. I don't turn to sources outside the Bible for my beliefs.

what is the non-trinitarians explantion of 'who created the Heavens and Earth?

My answer is the one given in the Bible: "God created the heavens and the earth." Your response will be "Then Jesus is God because he is the creator, according to Colossians 1:15-17." However, it is quite possible that Paul is thinking in this passage of the new creation initiated by the resurrection of Jesus, who is the first-born from the dead. (Col. 1:18) In this case there is no direct reference to the Genesis creation of heavens and earth. As always context is an important factor in gaining an understanding. Paul's focus in this passage is not on the Genesis creation but on "inheritance," "kingdom," and "authorities. (Col. 1:12, 13, 16) This strongly suggests that he has in mind the new creation in Christ who is the promised Messianic king. (John 3:3; Rom. 6:4; 7:6; 2 Cor. 5:17; Gal. 6:15; Eph. 2:10, 15; 4:23, 24; Col. 3:10)

What is the non-trinitarians explanation of "who raised Jesus from the Dead"?

The resurrection was performed by God himself. (Acts 2:24, 32; 3:15; 4:10; Rom. 4:24; 10:9) It is wrong to conclude from John 10:18 that Jesus raised himself. He spoke as he did because he had been assured by the Father that he would be raised. God had given Jesus both the right to give his life and to take it back again when God resurrected him.

he that hath seen me hath seen the Father

Jesus was not the Father, even as trinitarians acknowledge. He was the reflection or image of the Father, not because he was equal to the Father, but as he clearly explained: "The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own initiative, but the Father abiding in me does his works. Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; otherwise believe because of the works themselves." (Verses 7-11) The disciples saw the Father in Jesus, not because Jesus was equal to God, but because he spoke "words" and performed "works" on God's behalf.

Jesus said "he who believes in me, the works that I do, he will do also; and greater works than these he will do." He had just stated that it was his Father's "works" that proved others could see the Father when they saw him. Thus, others would see the Father in anyone who performed the "greater works" Jesus foretold. (Verse 12)

Phl.2:6 who, existing in the form of God, counted not the being on an equality with God a thing to be grasped,

Jesus existed, not as God, but "in the form" or in the image of God.

herk

ellderwho

Undis;

Also, I do not believe in the concept of God forcing people to be saved, first of all, because the Bible shows that Jesus WANTED to save the Pharisees, but THEY would not have it:

Lets look at Jn 10;25

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who hath given them unto me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father?s hand. 30I and the Father are one

Did the Father give the Pharisees to Jesus?. Can you yourself snatch yourself from the Fathers hand?

I do not believe in the concept of God forcing people to be saved

Ro.11:4;

4But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have left for myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to Baal.

When did these 7000k decide to have "saving faith" as you put it?

5Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

When does the above remnant decide to have "saving faith"?

If we in the flesh can decide upon when we want to act on Gods calling, knowing all the while their is no good in any of us, means that we are responsible for a hand in our salvation which ultimately brings us to a works salvation and not by grace.

E

All About The Trinity

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