All About The Trinity

by UnDisfellowshipped 287 Replies latest watchtower bible

Pistoff

Blah blah blah blah.
WHY should I care if God is a trinity??
Why can any of you postulate that in order to understand the scriptures I must undergo a second birth?
You are applying YOUR belief structures to me or any other person who would worship God, or be a Christian.
I am sorry, but to me Jesus died so that I could be free of other's opinions on what I NEED in order to be saved. Just 2 laws, remember??
It all just seems so unnecessary to me; does God, the supreme being of the Universe, designer, the original Cause, really care about this debate?
If as the Bible says that Jesus is the embodiment of what God thought, then my answer would be no. Jesus did not seem to me to be the type to be a stickler for the small stuff. He cured on the sabbath, he associated with sinners, his followers broke many traditions and some laws. He lit up the frauds in his day, without caring much for their feelings in the process.
I am sorry if I am being offensive; it just does not interest me in the least. As a witness I loved to discuss the trinity; I am allergic to it now.
zen nudist

Were you ever truly a Christian? Were you ever Born Again? Did you experience The Holy Spirit living inside of you? Did you ever have a close, personal relationship with Jesus Christ?
This assumes there is such a thing as a true christian, which to me now is a figment of your imagination, not a reality you can demonstrate as such.... as for experiencing, I have experienced lots of odd things, but now I am honest and admit I am ignorant as to the actual source and meaning of those experiences rather than ASSume they are from god or devil and have a specific concrete meaning that has no other confirmation than my own feeble imagination.
Zen, the difference is, there is only One Jesus Christ that actually died for you -- only ONE.
again, this is your imagination and/or belief, not a fact. but assuming the Jesus of the bible were a real person and not just a jewish adaptation of ancient godman, suffering messiah myths, as I now believe him to be, he does not strike me as the kind who would murder people or have them tormented forever for silliness associated with the trinity doctrine, rather he seems the sort who would skewer those who use such stupid debating as a reason to hate and divide rather than to obey his command to love all including your enemies.... he criticized the pharisees for such nonsensical arguments over being kind to their fellow man...etc.
Only the True Jesus Christ, the Almighty Creator God of the Bible, died for your sins.
if the bible never comes out and make is critical for salvation that I accept Jesus as God, who are you to demand it? if I were a christian accepting Jesus, etc... it does not seem to matter to him that I see him other than he asked Peter-- who do you say I am? to which he replied the christ son of God.[not God], to which Jesus replied this was given not of men, but of God. If that is Good enough for Jesus, it would be good enough for me if I were a believer.
The most important thing of all, is having a close, personal relationship with JESUS and being reconciled with God The Father and having The Holy Spirit live inside of your heart.
It amazes me to no end that people like you can believe that anyone can have a personal relationship with a character in a book, which of course is the ONLY Jesus you actually know... your self delusions and emotional expeirences not with standing.
Notice what Christ Himself said:
John 17:3: And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
if you believed this we would not be discussing the trinity as I am sure you understand the meaning of ONLY
Jesus said that it is EQUALLY important to KNOW God The Father AND Jesus Christ, and that this IS Eternal Life!
Accepting the myth as literal, this still shows a difference between GOD and Jesus, not just GOD the FATHER.
ellderwho

Undisfellowshipped;.
This is the bottom line, as far as I believe:
The Bible says:
* God is absolutely sovereign -- nothing can happen without Him either (1) causing it or (2) allowing it to happen.
* God knows all things -- past, present, and future.
What is really the bottom line?
Will Gods will be done?
You say Gods know all things past, present and future. Have you really thought about this?
Do you realize how far reaching this statement is? Because if you really think it through it would cause you to re-think some of your reasonings for "choice"
What is really the bottom line? You did not choose your birth!
Did Abraham,Moses,or David choose God?
John writes " these men were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. Jo.1:13
John knew that no Christian ever made the first move toward God.
Abrahams' call came twice, once when he was in Ur of the Chaldess(Acts 7:2-4) and years later when he was in Haran.
Moses,David upon request.
E
UnDisfellowshipped

Ellderwho said:
What is really the bottom line?
Will Gods will be done?
Whatever God says is going to happen is going to happen. No discussion about it. It is already history even though it hasn't happened yet.
My point is: I go only by what the Scriptures say.
The Scriptures say that God does not want any to be destroyed -- He wants all people to repent and be saved.
However, the Scripture also shows that God is not going to cause all people to be saved.
Therefore, the only conclusion is that God wants to save all people, but people can reject Him, even after they have been enlightened by The Spirit.
Ellderwho said:
You say Gods know all things past, present and future. Have you really thought about this?
Do you realize how far reaching this statement is? Because if you really think it through it would cause you to re-think some of your reasonings for "choice"
What is really the bottom line? You did not choose your birth!
I go only by what the Scriptures say. Yes, I have thought about it A LOT.
Ellderwho said:
Did Abraham,Moses,or David choose God?
John writes " these men were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. Jo.1:13
John knew that no Christian ever made the first move toward God.
I agree, and that is what I have been saying all along.
No one can come to God until after The Spirit has enlightened a person and convicted that person of sin, so that they can understand the Scriptures.
Hebrews Chapter 6, Hebrews Chapter 10, and 2nd Peter Chapter 2 show very clearly that people who have been enlightened by the Spirit can still choose to reject God and fall away to Hell.
1st John shows clearly that people who have been Born Again by the Spirit CANNOT practice sin and CANNOT fall away to Hell.
There is a definite difference between being "enlightened" by The Spirit and being "Born Again" by The Spirit.
UnDisfellowshipped

Zen Nudist said:
if the bible never comes out and make is critical for salvation that I accept Jesus as God, who are you to demand it? if I were a christian accepting Jesus, etc... it does not seem to matter to him that I see him other than he asked Peter-- who do you say I am? to which he replied the christ son of God.[not God], to which Jesus replied this was given not of men, but of God. If that is Good enough for Jesus, it would be good enough for me if I were a believer.

But what about the Apostle Thomas' confession to Jesus?
John 20:28: And Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!"
Why should Peter's statement be more important than Thomas' statement?
Look at Jesus' response to Thomas' statement:
John 20:29: Jesus said to him, "Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."
LittleToe

UnDF'd:
Therefore, the only conclusion is that God wants to save all people, but people can reject Him, even after they have been enlightened by The Spirit..............There is a definite difference between being "enlightened" by The Spirit and being "Born Again" by The Spirit.
You might want to elaborate, so that folks know how you are defining "enlightened". It'll make the difference between agreement and disagreement.
Does the Lord begin a work without bringing it to completion?
Can the Word go forth, and return void?
1st John shows clearly that people who have been Born Again by the Spirit CANNOT practice sin and CANNOT fall away to Hell.
1st John is far more rounded than the point that you have asserted here. The context, of the verse that you use, is in regard to the sin of lacking love for our brothers. Love is the mark of Christians, especially when the "spirit" in one recognises the "spirit" in another. Is it not also part of the fruit (singular, though diverse) of the Spirit, as well as a specific gift in its own right. This is the "commandment" that we sin against - two laws, yes?
Paul has a much deeper discourse, on "sin" per se, in Rom. 6 & 7.
zen nudist

But what about the Apostle Thomas' confession to Jesus?
John 20:28: And Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!"
Why should Peter's statement be more important than Thomas' statement?
Look at Jesus' response to Thomas' statement:
John 20:29: Jesus said to him, "Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."
First of all, trinitarians have used this as a proof text that Thomas saw Jesus as god...when in reality it is no such thing.... if Jesus appeared infront of me and I "exclaimed" my lord and my god...it would not mean I was calling Jesus that, but it is a "common" expression of excitement and shock.... to use such as "proof" that Jesus is God, is to me, very silly, especially considering how Jesus had Just told Mary, that his God was OUR God, and his Father was OUR FATHER.... Jesus consistantly presented himself as our "brother" not our God...one of us... as Paul said, there is ONE who is mediator between GOD and MAN, the MAN, Jesus --notice that was AFTER he supposedly died and rose from the dead.... to take exclamations of suprize as proof texts seems, well, just desperate.
LittleToe

Zen:
Do you really believe that, or are you just trying to work up an apologetic for your perspective?
How does that concur with the opening words of that Gospel?
The writer was making a statement with the whole book, and it wasn't that "people exclaim using expletives, when something surprising happens"...
ellderwho

if Jesus appeared infront of me and I "exclaimed" my lord and my god...

This is a Jw position as well. This also lends thought to inserting a modern slang response to the context.
Greek: "my kurios, my theos" (without rebuke)
Unfornately I am unaware of the aramaic rendering.
What I find interesting about the whole idea of the trinity is the one burning question.
Why did the Jews want to stone Jesus?
Blashemy, " you a man make yourself equal with God.
E
zen nudist

Why did the Jews want to stone Jesus?
Blashemy, " you a man make yourself equal with God.

yes, this is true, however what trinitarians fail to see, is that in each and every instance Jesus follows up their accusation with something to show that he is without guilt in this regard.... after all, he would be violating the first commandment if he actually were claiming to be God falsely, right? you shall have no other gods before me.... so unless he really were God, any statement claiming god-ship would be rightly a crime worthy of death under the law of Moses....
yet if you read each and every instance, Jesus NEVER tells the, I am not blaspheming, because in actuality I am GOD...but quite the opposite, he tells them that he has never made such a claim in John 10...showing that the law calls judges like his, gods, and rightly pointing out if that were blaspheme, they were the guilty ones, while continuing, he says, but I have only said I am God's son, which is no crime at all. in John 5, after similar accusation, Jesus points out that he did not have life of himself, but God GRANTED him to have it.... when he is accused of having the power to forgive sins, which they FALSELY conclude only God can do....he points out to them that God GAVE him that authority, and futher, later on, we find that Jesus gave that authority to his own disciples, giving them the power to heal as he had done...and no one says that makes the disciples God.....
show me one place where jesus was accused of being God and he turns to them and says, well of course, because I am GOD.
just one will do.

All About The Trinity

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