by UnDisfellowshipped 287 Replies latest watchtower bible
Do you really believe that, or are you just trying to work up an apologetic for your perspective?
of course not, I could care less if the trinity is biblical or not, its just a mental puzzle for me, one which I find trinitarians to be very dishonest about...notice I gave three witness from heaven earlier, three visions which all show the same exact thing and no trinitarian touched it... I have called my witnesses, challenge their veracity or accept their testimony, which is it?
Zen said:
First of all, trinitarians have used this as a proof text that Thomas saw Jesus as god...when in reality it is no such thing.... if Jesus appeared infront of me and I "exclaimed" my lord and my god...it would not mean I was calling Jesus that, but it is a "common" expression of excitement and shock.... to use such as "proof" that Jesus is God, is to me, very silly, especially considering how Jesus had Just told Mary, that his God was OUR God, and his Father was OUR FATHER.... Jesus consistantly presented himself as our "brother" not our God...one of us... as Paul said, there is ONE who is mediator between GOD and MAN, the MAN, Jesus --notice that was AFTER he supposedly died and rose from the dead.... to take exclamations of suprize as proof texts seems, well, just desperate.
Yes, Zen, Jesus is indeed 100% Man in Heaven, He is also 100% God in Heaven, just as He was on earth.
If Jesus is ONLY a man in Heaven, then He is actually LESS than He was before He came to earth, but the Bible says that Jesus is MORE now and that God The Father exalted Jesus higher than the Heavens.
Also, to the Jews, it would have been breaking one of the Ten Commandments to use the Name "God" or "Lord" in vain:
Exodus 20:7: Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
And, if Thomas has broken that Commandment, don't you think that Jesus would have rebuked Thomas? Or, even if He did not rebuke Thomas, He certainly would not have commended Thomas for breaking one of the Ten Commandments!
Just look: Jesus said Thomas (and everyone else in the future) was BLESSED because he believed that Jesus was Lord and God:
John 20: 26-29: And after eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, "Peace to you!" Then He said to Thomas, "Reach your finger here, and look at My hands; and reach your hand here, and put it into My side. Do not be unbelieving, but believing." And Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!" Jesus said to him, "Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."
Zen said:
Jesus consistantly presented himself as our "brother" not our God
Jesus did indeed refer to others as His "brothers", because Jesus was 100% Human -- The Son of Man.
But, you must not have read these Verses, or you ignored them:
John 14:6-10: Jesus said to him, " I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life : no man comes to the Father, except through Me. If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him." Philip said to Him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us." Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, 'Show us the Father'? Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me?
John 8:58: Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, Before Abraham was, I AM."
John 3:13: No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.
John 11:25-26: Jesus said to her, "I am the Resurrection and the Life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?"
Jesus also spoke of His superiority to His followers -- notice:
John 13:13-14: You call Me Teacher and Lord, and you say well, for so I am. If I then, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also ought to wash one another's feet.
Matthew 23:8: But you, do not be called 'Rabbi'; for One is your Teacher, the Christ, and you are all brethren.
Luke 17:10: So likewise you, when you have done all those things which you are commanded, say, 'We are unprofitable servants. We have done what was our duty to do.'"
I could post more, but those should be sufficient to show very clearly that Jesus never spoke of Himself as only a human.
Zen Nudist said:
what trinitarians fail to see, is that in each and every instance Jesus follows up their accusation with something to show that he is without guilt in this regard.... after all, he would be violating the first commandment if he actually were claiming to be God falsely, right? you shall have no other gods before me.... so unless he really were God, any statement claiming god-ship would be rightly a crime worthy of death under the law of Moses....
yet if you read each and every instance, Jesus NEVER tells the, I am not blaspheming, because in actuality I am GOD...but quite the opposite, he tells them that he has never made such a claim in John 10...showing that the law calls judges like his, gods, and rightly pointing out if that were blaspheme, they were the guilty ones, while continuing, he says, but I have only said I am God's son, which is no crime at all.
No, in John Chapter 10, look very closely at Jesus' response: John 10:33-39: The Jews answered Him, saying, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God." Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your law, 'I said, "You are gods"'? If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, 'You are blaspheming,' because I said, 'I am the Son of God'? If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; but if I do, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, that you may know and believe that the Father is in Me, and I in Him." Therefore they sought again to seize Him, but He escaped out of their hand.
Show me where Jesus was denying that He was God!
Jesus was saying basically, 'if God called those mere human judges "gods", how much more so should the One whom The Father sanctified and sent from Heaven to earth be called The Son of God!'
Earlier in John Chapter 10, Jesus said the following things:
* That He was going to raise Himself from the dead.
* That He was "The Good Shepherd" (and remember, no one is Good except One, God)
* That The Father is greater than all, and that Jesus and The Father are One.
What does the title "The Son of God" mean anyway? What does the title "The Son of Man" mean? What does "The Only-Begotten Son of God" mean?
Zen said:
in John 5, after similar accusation, Jesus points out that he did not have life of himself, but God GRANTED him to have it.... when he is accused of having the power to forgive sins, which they FALSELY conclude only God can do....he points out to them that God GAVE him that authority, and futher, later on, we find that Jesus gave that authority to his own disciples, giving them the power to heal as he had done...and no one says that makes the disciples God.....
No, Jesus never did point out that others besides God can forgive sins. That is something only God can do.
I can try to post Scriptures on that soon.
Zen said:
show me one place where jesus was accused of being God and he turns to them and says, well of course, because I am GOD.
I can ....
John 5:16-23: For this reason the Jews persecuted Jesus, and sought to kill Him, because He had done these things on the Sabbath. But Jesus answered them, "My Father has been working until now, and I have been working." Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God. Then Jesus answered and said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner. For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself does; and He will show Him greater works than these, that you may marvel. For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will. For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son, that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.
Notice, Jesus very clearly said that just as The Father as God was not under the Sabbath, He was not under the Sabbath either.
After He says that, then the Pharisees try to kill Him for claiming to be EQUAL with God.
Then, what does Jesus say in response to them?
"all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father."
LittleToe said:
You might want to elaborate, so that folks know how you are defining "enlightened". It'll make the difference between agreement and disagreement.
I will show the Holy Scriptures about being "enlightened" by The Spirit, because I do not want to elaborate beyond them:
Hebrews 6: 4-6 (NKJV): For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
Hebrews 10: 26-31 (NKJV): For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. Anyone who has rejected Moses' law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know Him who said, "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay," says the Lord. And again, "The L ord will judge His people." It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
2nd Peter 2:1-3 (NKJV): B ut there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction. And many will follow their destructive ways, because of whom the way of truth will be blasphemed. By covetousness they will exploit you with deceptive words; for a long time their judgment has not been idle, and their destruction does not slumber.
2nd Peter 2: 20-22 (NKJV): For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: "A dog returns to his own vomit," and, "a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire."
Those Verses show that:
A person who has "partaken of The Holy Spirit", "been enlightened", "tasted the Heavenly free gift", and who has "received the knowledge of the truth", and who was "bought by the Lord" CAN willfully choose to fall away to destruction and Hell by denying the Lord Jesus Christ.
My belief is that those persons were never Born Again, because the Scriptures show that a person who has been Born Again cannot fall away to Hell:
Even if a Born Again Christian is back-sliding, and does not do good works, that Christian will still be saved and go to Heaven, but he will lose out on rewards in Heaven:
1st Corinthians 3:11-15: For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is. If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
The Apostle John said that people who have been Born Again CANNOT willfully practice sin:
1st John 3:4-9: Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him. Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.
Therefore, a person who has been "enlightened" can willfully choose to deny and reject Jesus and fall away to Hell, but a Born Again Christian can NEVER fall away to Hell and cannot practice sin.
LittleToe said:
Does the Lord begin a work without bringing it to completion?
Can the Word go forth, and return void?
Whatever God says is going to happen is going to happen.
However, it is obviously the will of God that He allows people to choose whether to accept or reject Jesus after they have been "enlightened".
Also, here is one last Scripture that shows beyond a shadow of a doubt that God WANTS all people to be saved:
Acts 17:30-31: Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead."
Undisfellowshipped;
Therefore, a person who has been "enlightened" can willfully choose to deny and reject Jesus and fall away to Hell, but a Born Again Christian can NEVER fall away to Hell and cannot practice sin.
Romans 8:14 for as many as are led by the spirit of God these are sons of God.
8:26 like wise the spirit also helps in our weakness for we do not know what we should pray for as we ought.
8:29 for whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his son.
8:30 moreover whom he predestined these he also called; whom he called; these he also justified...
a person who has been "enlightened" can willfully choose
Ro.9:11 For the children not yet being born, nor having any good or evil, but the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of him that calls.
9:13 as it is written Jacob I have loved Esau I have hated.
9:15 for he says to Moses I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy on, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion on
a person who has been "enlightened" can willfully choose
9:16 So it is not of mans desire or effort, but of God who shows mercy,
9:17 scripture says about Pharoah; I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power.
what was Pharoahs' choice?
a person who has been "enlightened" can willfully choose
9:18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
Ro 11:29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
2Cor 1:9 yes we had the sentence of death in ourselves that we should not trust in ourselves, but in God who raised the dead,
4:6 for it is God who commanded light to shine out of the darkness, who has shone in our hearts to give the light of knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
Gal. 1:15 But when it pleased God who seperated me from my mothers womb and called me through his grace.
a person who has been "enlightened" can willfully choose
1:16 to reveal his son in me.
Gal 4:8 But then indeed when you did not know God, you served those who by nature were not gods.
a person who has been "enlightened" can willfully choose
4:9 but now after you have known God or rather are known by God...
5:3 you have been called to liberty, only do not use the liberty as an opportunity for the flesh.
Eph.1:4 just as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world.
a person who has been "enlightened" can willfully choose
1:5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to himself..
1:11 In him we also have obtained as inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will.
2:1 and you he made alive who were dead in trespass and sins.
2:3 among whom also we all conducted ourselves in the lust of our flesh and in the mind and by nature children of wrath.
2:5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ.
a person who has been "enlightened" can willfully choose
4:4 there is one body and one spirit just as you were called in one hope of your calling.
Phil.1:6 being confident of this very thing that he who has begun a work in you, will complete it until the day of Christ.
Col 1:26 the mystery which has been hidden from the ages and from generations but now has been revealed to his saints.
1:27 to them God willed to make known them the riches of the glory of this mystery among the gentiles
2:13 and you being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, he made you alive together with him.
a person who has been "enlightened" can willfully choose
3:12 therefore as the elect of God holy and beloved put on tender mercies.
1Thes2:12 that you would walk worthy of God who calls you into his own kingdom.
2Thes 2:13 but we are bound to give thanks to God always for you brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the begining chose you for salvation through the sanctification by the spirit.
2:14 to which he called you by our gospel for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord.
a person who has been "enlightened" can willfully choose
2Tim1:8 who has saved us an called us with a holy calling not according to our works but according to his own pleasure.
1:9 this grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time.
1:11 and of this gospel I was appointed.
1Pet 1:1 who have been choosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father.
a person who has been "enlightened" can willfully choose
1Pet 1:15 but just as he that has clled you.
1Pet 2:9 But you are a choosen people.......'a people belonging to God
1John 2:27 As for you the anointing you received...
Whose choice? ours or Gods??
E
I like the words of the Evangelist who claimed that he was a Calvinist on his knees, but an Arminian in the pulpit.
I'm all for the "appearance" of choice when we talk of coming to "faith". The idea of being "bought" then lost is anathama, though.
LT, "perseverance of the saints" class.
A Arminian has to make room for exceptions to the rules of an Arminians postion.
E
what is wrong with this view:
once a person is "saved" and in dwelt by the holy spirit to be in the position of being saved from whatever....
he is now where Adam was, a perfected man... and as such can now make a willful decision to stay that way or not, as Adam
could? Would not this fit with all known verses that seem to conflict?
no one can take this away from the man, but himself if he choses NOT to want it any longer.... after all, what is the point of calling salvation a free gift it is really a chain around ones neck that cannot be broken and no real choice was ever involved?
it would also make sense of Paul's statements that even though he had the calling, he still ran it as a race to the finish, so that what was being offered to him would infact one day be his.
