by Simon 242 Replies latest social current
SNG, I often wonder if you would have the same reaction on Sept 12th, 2001. Just imagine if Gore would have been President, who knows how many tall skyscrapers would still be left in the US? The terrorists would then have a field day and instead control us and the world would be unsafe. Bush is doing the right thing - although not perfect - and shows leadership and resolve to deal with the terrorists appropriately.
Richie :*)
Also, E-man said he admired Bush for hanging in there and not swerving. I keep hearing Bush supporters say this. Why is this a automatically a good thing? Isn't the capacity to realize a mistake and change course much better than stubbornly refusing to yield? I would respect Bush enormously if he said, "My fellow Americans, over the past weeks, I have come to understand that our present tack is not right. We are alienating the world and building future hatred from extremists. I want to change the direction we are heading.
Seattle,
Ordinarily I'd agree with with your viewpoint. However, once you've committed a country to war you've got to stay the course and see it through to the bitter end if needs be.
Englishman.
Yes, they should stay the course and sort out the mess created in the current conflicts but that doesn't mean that the ethos or direction of the wider 'war on terror' that he is following is correct. It will do nothing but generate more terrorism just as previous actions generated the terrorism that this current action is supposed to address.
Until blithe statements like "they hate us because we are free" are stopped being made, never mind believed then nothing will change. Even the mighty US has found that military action against terrorism does not work.
You can't kill every misquito ... what you need to do is drain the swamp and remove the enviroment that causes them to breed. This means taking a long hard look at what policies have been followed that can cause people to commit terrorist acts.
It will do nothing but generate more terrorism just as previous actions generated the terrorism that this current action is supposed to address.
I don't think so. Countries that have supported terrorism in the past will think twice before doing that again. Look at Libya for example.
Plus, take the IRA saga in Northern Ireland. You ask a few RAF servicemen who did a few flights over the troublesome areas with the bomb doors open. It worked wonders.
Until blithe statements like "they hate us because we are free" are stopped being made, never mind believed then nothing will change
I agree that is patriotic horseshit that has you're average Brit rolling onthe floor with laughter. Hoots of derision are well deserved for whoever dreamed up that little gem.
what you need to do is drain the swamp and remove the enviroment that causes them to breed. This means taking a long hard look at what policies have been followed that can cause people to commit terrorist acts.
Agreed American foreign policy is horrendous. But their penal system treats their own citizens with Draconian vengeance too, so I can't see them being all sweet to non-Americans on the other side of the world.
The country is a World Power. World Powers always put their own agendas first. To expect otherwise is simply not realistic. One does not have to become a terrorist because of that simple fact. Only time will change things, just as in 30 years or so America will probably have slipped from the number 1 spot.
Englishman.
Yeru and others have said in response to my bringing up Pres. Bush's statment:
It IS our freedom that they hate, and our wealth, and the fact that we're not muslim. When people think of consumerism, they're not thinking about Italy, they're thinking about the US.
Then why don't they hate other free and wealthy countries? There are plenty. I would suggest that wider reading be done into the historical context of the USA and their support of dictatorships that have caused ruin in struggling countries. Dictators that are friendly to the USA and their corporations and that allow these corporations to use their resources, cheap labor, and pollute the country. There are more reasons the USA has meddled in the politics of other nations and NOT allowed them to be democratic.
A lot of this can be documented because of the Freedom of Information Act and documents have been made available to the public.
Another reason--and not because USA is not Muslim, there again, many countries are not Muslim--is USA support of Israel (who incidentally has over 200 nuclear weapons and has NEVER allowed a UN inspection team and been in flagrant violation of UN) which has been, of course, antagonistic to the Arabs for decades. I know there are multiple reasons and arguments for this, but it still is a major cause of ill feeling from the Arabs for the USA.
I know this should be documented at least to some degree, but I'm not going to because there's plenty of information available and it takes more reading that would be possible on this post. One could start with Z-net website
that has many links to some of this information.
Pat
And if a person truly believes that these enemies of the USA are willing to commit suicide and fight so hard, and live in caves in order to pursue their hatred of the USA just because
"they hate us because we're free,"
then I understand why that person thinks the Muslim extremists are crazy and illogical.
But there's always two sides to the story and the history shows their side of the issue if anyone is willing to listen and at least make a better judgment after hearing both sides. A court, for example, isn't UNfair because it hears both sides of the issue and, in my opinion, if we just hear the Fox News (as an example) side, we are not hearing both sides and are not well informed citizens of a democracy.
Respectfully,
Pat
Yeru:
Where do I begin to answer the other nonsense.
There was I trying to say in a nice way your Avatar makes you look like a nationalistic klutz that fulfills every European's nightmare sterotype about the bad side of the USA and you're rude to me. Very nice...
You call Bush incompetent? Where is he incompetent?
At various points the following inaccurate statements were being passed on to the US public;
1/ Iraq were involved in 911 or if not that they had links with Al-Q.
2/ They represented a threat to the USA due to their massive stocks of WoMD
Both those staements have been shown to be false. So Bush lied, or put his country at war based on misleading information. If you call that competent I shudder to think what kind of people you salute to...
If the President of a large company lied or made a similar mistake (even if it was as a result of misleading information), and people died as a result of it, he would have to go, as that is not the competence one expects from the President of a company. What appllies to a company applies even more to a country.
You're correct, the US is NOT a true democracy, it's a federal republic...there is a difference.
It IS our freedom that they hate,
Wrong. Other countries with similar or better levels of personal freedom are not hated as much as the Americans.
and our wealth,
Wrong. Again. Countries where individual GDP is far higher than the USA are not hated as much as the Americans.
and the fact that we're not muslim.
Wrong. Yet again. Other non-Muslim countries are not hated as much as the Americans
When people think of consumerism, they're not thinking about Italy, they're thinking about the US.
No, when people think about a country with joke of a leader and a "foreign policy" that alienates the rest of the world with its arrogance, they think of the USA, not Italy.
You have to remember, I'm British, we know ALL about arrogant foreign policy, we invented it, so I think I know it when I see it...
Hi Eman,
You said:
Agreed American foreign policy is horrendous. But their penal system treats their own citizens with Draconian vengeance too, so I can't see them being all sweet to non-Americans on the other side of the world.
No argument there--the USA imprisons more of its population than any other industrialized nation in the world. However, it's not applicable to compare imprisoning one's own population to invading sovereign nations because of having WMD-capability (a college student may figure out capability). Within one's own borders is one thing, but to claim the right to invade at will in violation of international law could be a war crime.
The country is a World Power. World Powers always put their own agendas first. To expect otherwise is simply not realistic. One does not have to become a terrorist because of that simple fact. Only time will change things, just as in 30 years or so America will probably have slipped from the number 1 spot.
So true, the USA is becoming more of a conquering empire it seems. A big difference is that its citizenry is supposed to have the right in saying how the country is governed. France and Turkey's populations did not want to assist the USA invading Iraq and demonstrated how a democracy should work. And these countries were castigated and bullied by the US for their respecting their populations' rights.
But my main point is that it doesn't seem that we can be so blase as to think it'll all pass. There are nuclear weapons and now militarization of space involved and is a much more dangerous situation than when there were other pushy world powers. The USA stepping up the arms race and pushing into more and more weaponry is also pushing other nations (if you don't have nuclear weapons, watch out for the USA) to develop stronger defenses. After all, President Bush has stated that the fact that Iraq had the capability to develop WMD made it justifiable to invade. So, if a country is basically defenseless, then the US may be a problem. But if they're "armed and dangerous," then it may deter invasion, or at least meddling in their government. It's escalating the arms race and, since they're nuclear, it makes the world much more dangerous.
Pat
Simon,
Until blithe statements like "they hate us because we are free" are stopped being made, never mind believed then nothing will change. Even the mighty US has found that military action against terrorism does not work.You can't kill every misquito ... what you need to do is drain the swamp and remove the enviroment that causes them to breed. This means taking a long hard look at what policies have been followed that can cause people to commit terrorist acts
I love ya man, but you're blind. What "swamp" was Osama born in, this child of privelege? He hates the US because we are not Muslim...it's Jihad man...those aren't just words to him and his ilk, they strongly believe in killing both non-muslims, and those muslims that don't meet they're harsh ideology.
Simon, actually the US has found that military action has indeed worked, quite well in fact.
This "swamp" you speak of , is it the millions of dollars Osama grew up with? No, it was the ideology of hate he was brought up on, nothing more. Until folks like yourself realise this is a real war, we in the west are bound to lose.
there are frogs jumping out of my computer all over my desk
eisenstein
