McVeigh vs Death Penalty

by Amazing 272 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  JanH

  Amazing,

  You merely assert that somehow, the state killing a criminal is "justice". You have not demonstrated this. Justice is not any objective standard. It is a matter of individual feelings. It is, when we talk about punishment, nothing but revenge. In the US, I have seen evidence that you want punishment to be revenge. The role of the victims' families in punishment is one example.

  It is true that prison is cruel. However, if it wasn't a negative side to it, it would not be a deterrent. But you need not have the "prisoners create their own hell" prison system like you have in the US, where guards use gang rape as a means for internal "discipline".

  It is true that some extremely few individuals are too dangerous to let go. It is not at all necessary to kill people for this purpose.

  The best argument against the death penalty is the chance of error. The legal system has been demonstrated to be horribly inept at establishing facts in a criminal case. And the reference to the DNA tsting leading to some people being released just demonstrates my point: courts are incompetent. When a new scientific method comes along, a lot of people who were convicted by juries of their peers are released. What does it tell us? That juries can't establish facts, especially not in highly emotional cases. If 1/3rd or whatever of those in death row were released, it is not unreasonable to assume that if the new tests had not come along, the majority of those -- if not all -- would have been executed. Also, this means that it is a reasonable conclusion that a comparable proportion of those executed in the US since 1973 was actually innocent.

  When you are sawying "people should not be executed unless you are 100% sure" you say nothing at all. It is an established principle of all legal systems that there should be no unreasonable doubt for anyone to be found guilty, whatever the crime or punishment. Yet, as we see demonstrated again and again, it doesn't work. This is the fact we have to use as a basis for our conclusion. And when an imprisoned person is found innocent, he can be given some sort of compensation and released. When an executed person is found innocent, all you can do is rebury him. I am quite sure he appreciates that!

  Compoaring the USA to China, Iran, Iraq is utterly absurd. Those nations kill at the drop of a hat, and for mere political dissidence.

  
  So does the US. The crime of espionage is a political one.

  Surely, there are countries that are worse than the US. I am sure it is a source of great comfort to you knowing it is possible to find countries like Iraq, China and Saudi Arabia, that actually manage to do it worse. One should hope, futile I see, that you would consider it better to be aligned with countries like France or Holland than to struggle to avoid comparison to Afghanistan.

  According to Amnesty, in 2000 88% of known executions took place in China, Iran, Saudi Arabia and the USA. China is in a class of its own, killing more than 1000 people. Saudi-Arabia is known to have executed 123. The US executed 85. Iran killed at least 75 people.

  You are indeed in good company.

  When it comes to executing children, you really show your true colors when it comes to human rights. From Amnesty:

  Seven countries since 1990 are known to have executed prisoners who were under 18 years old at the time of the crime - Congo (Democratic Republic), Iran, Nigeria, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, USA and Yemen. The country which carried out the greatest number of known executions of child offenders was the USA (14 since 1990).

  More and more countries have been abolishing the death penalty. Only a few hardline nations insist that their state should have the right to kill its own citizens in peacetime.

  Given the facts outlined earlier, demonstrating the gross erros of the US legal system, it is laughable when you claim defendents are better defended in the US than in these 3rd world countries. Ninety innocent people have been released from death row in the US. How can any country have a worse track record? Flipping a coin to establish guilt?

  - Jan
  --
  Faith, n. Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel. [Ambrose Bierce, The Devil´s Dictionary, 1911]
• 

  SixofNine

  Sure, Wendy. Now take my point. These people kill themselves, not innocents. See the huge difference. They go to the absolute worst extreme for their cause, but it is their [i]own[i/] life they sacrifice. I see a huge difference between those people and McVeigh.

  Think just for a moment about something you feel very strongly in.

  I can't think of much I feel more strongly about than justice, lol.
• 

  Seeker

  Thank you for taking the time to comment specifically on what I said. I appreciate that.

  huh? Most of them, I would say. I'm really questioning where you are coming from here. We humans do have quite an ability to think, even in the heat of the moment. And we do. Those of us who don't, won't, or can't, just are not safe to have walking around in society.

  No, human nature is to NOT think of the consequences in the heat of the moment. That's quit typical, actually. Human psychology is known in this area.

  So if a mom whose child was blown to icky bits in the OKC bombing, revenged her childs death, you would consider her just as much a force of evil as McVeigh? I'm not saying it would be right, but you would consider her the same level of scum as McVeigh? Do I have this right from your statement above?

  No, for her motives would be different (and even understandable). But her methods would be identical. He used force. She used force. Different motives, same methods.

  Who gives a flying f*** what he wants of doesn't want. It matters not, to this discussion or any discussion beyond his last meal. Before the bombing, it would have had great relevance to any associated with him. He lost that privilege.

  Oh, I thought we were talking about deterrence? With deterrence, taking into consideration what the criminal does or does not want comes into the picture. In fact, that's the whole picture of deterrence! If McVeigh has to suffer year after weary year, it reminds other would-be revolutionaries that they won't get a glorious finish as a martyr, but will slowly be forgetten to the rubbish-heap of history.

  No. And why should it? No great epiphany there. Nothing particularly "revolutionary" about blowing up innocents.

  On the contrary, it is a typical by-product of war. And he got this issue into the minds of millions of persons as a result. People who had never heard of these militia elements now heard of them.

  I'm profoundly sorry you see me that way. You are wrong, as innocents are not in danger from me.

  It was a harsh thing for me to say, but I was quite upset at your words. However, innocents are very much in danger from you, for you want to murder all murderers. Since there are persons on death row who actually are innocent, they are innocents in danger from people such as yourself. Another reason against the death penalty.

  Just hope you are never accidentally and falsely accused of murder, or else you may have cause to rethink your stance on taking life when life is taken.
• 

  Roamingfeline

  Also, I have a serious concern with our prison system in the USA and elsewhere. So, if I were convicted of such a crime, even if innocent, I would rather die than be the fleash fodder to some 300 pound guy in a cell named Bubba who calls me sweety. I can't think of a worse way to treat people, thean to confine them to conditions like that for life. Better to pull the switch and mercifully let them go out of existence. Just my point of view. - Amazing

  Hmm... not a bad idea.. I think they should put McVeigh into the cell with Bubba for a month, and THEN kill him. And not by lethal injection.. that's too easy. Slow hanging would be better, with a bit of torture thrown in for good measure. He's the worst kind of human being-- soulless. They haven't been able to break him down since they got him. I think Bubba would work.

  RCat
• 

  Seeker

  Hmm... not a bad idea.. I think they should put McVeigh into the cell with Bubba for a month, and THEN kill him. And not by lethal injection.. that's too easy. Slow hanging would be better, with a bit of torture thrown in for good measure. He's the worst kind of human being-- soulless. They haven't been able to break him down since they got him. I think Bubba would work.

  There you go! Couldn't have made the point better myself. Death penalty is not for deterrence, not for safety, but for vengeance. Pure and simple.
• 

  Roamingfeline

  Sorry Amazing, I am totally, absolutely against the execution of McVeigh. Society must rise above the need for vengeance of this sort. If we uphold the death penalty we are no better than JW's who reckon that apostates must die at the hand of God, we are just extending the devaluing of human existence shown by the likes of McVeigh.

  Spoken like a true Brit... which is why here in Australia, the criminals are protected more than the victims, and teenagers wanting drug money go around bashing elderly people with whatever's handy, with impunity! They break into homes without fear of retribution, just like they did at my neighbor's home this evening. If people were allowed to defend themselves, and gave a couple of these thugs what's coming to them, there wouldn't be all the crimes we see here! It's attitudes like "rise above" the barbaric tendencies, that leave the innocents wide open to being mistreated by the real barbarians!

  RCat,
  Who's sick and tired of the attitudes which allow innocents to be treated as criminals, and criminals to be treated as the "victims".
• 

  SixofNine

  No, human nature is to NOT think of the consequences in the heat of the moment. That's quit typical, actually. Human psychology is known in this area.

  hmmm. Of course, a little fear of ever getting TO that flash point is not such a bad thing is it? Maybe even deciding ahead of time not to ever abuse another human, even if just for selfish reasons? I wonder how cooler heads can consistently prevail, if we give just as much validity to hot heads? Human psychology is fuzzy at best on these issues. You are right of course, that at certain levels of passion, we do things differently than normal. We see, or don't see things the same as we normally would.

  Oh, I thought we were talking about deterrence?

  No, I wasn't just talking about deterence, I was talking about the entire scope of the issue.

  However, innocents are very much in danger from you, for you want to murder all murderers. Since there are persons on death row who actually are innocent,

  I can only repeat, more forcefully: Innocents are NOT in danger from me.

  BTW, your calling innocent people, who excercise justice by executing murderers, murderers, is IMO, a very un-nice way to argue. The definition of murder is clear in english, and has been for a long, long time. The funny thing is, if your next door neighbor was a prison warden, I doubt seriously if you would live in fear of having a "murderer" living so close. An actual murderer, rapist or pedophile, then the story would be different, would it not?
• 

  Englishman

  Amazing,

  Most of what I wanted to say has been amply covered by Tina and Mommy.

  Re the US having 250 million people to handle, Europe without a death penalty has many more than that and, believe me, incredible diversity.

  Take the Irish problem, would any progress have been made if the UK had executed the guy who murdered Prince Charles uncle, Lord Mountbatten, or the bombers who blew up the Conservative party conference in Brighton? How about the comparatively recent outrage in Armagh?

  I think that the US will have to abandon capital punishment fairly soon, the "tough on crime" election ticket that is exploited by politicians will soon be seen as the fraud that it is, an excuse so as to cover up the real social issue that are raised by poverty and drugs.

  Englishman.

  ..... fanaticism masquerading beneath a cloak of reasoned logic.
• 

  ros

  Question for JanH:

  Hi, Jan:
  Personally, I would not object to an alternative solution to the death penalty. I mainly don't oppose it in the case of someone like McVeigh (WHERE THERE IS NO ROOM FOR ERROR OF GUILT) because I don't see why a nation of people should have to be taxed to feed and provide living quarters, hire guards and weapons, towers to watch, etc. etc. for extremely dangerous people. For that reason, I don't oppose the death penalty for wanton and serial murders, particularly of children, but really anyone. If there were some sort of penal colony, like a remote island in the Pacific, where these beasts could be safely put away to forage for themselves among themselves, that would be fine with me.

  The questions:
  Of the four or so nations that you mention who enforce the death penalty, isn't it true that crime is very low in those other nations (China and the Arabic nations?)

  Isn't the high crime rate in the U.S. due to the fact of so many laws about so many things?
  If the murder rate is higher than in other countries, that would make an interesting study. The reasons why, if that is true, probably have no particular relevance to the death penalty. In other words, I doubt that if the death penalty were abolished that either the rate of murders or crime in general would be decreased.

  Why do social activists necessarily OPPOSE the death penalty for wanton serial killers or someone like McVeigh? Do you see execution as being in some way different than, for example, going to war to "fight for your country"?

  This is not meant to be argumentative--I'm just interested in the REASONING of your point of view.

  Ros
  "A religion that teaches lies cannot be true"--The Watchtower, 12/1/91 pg. 7
• 

  Jendigo

  I feel VERY strongly about this entire subject. The death penalty is deserved in this case.

  "He [ U.S. District Judge Richard Matsch] said McVeigh was at war against the federal government, ''but the United States government is not some abstraction, not some alien force. It is the American people, people in the Murrah Building who were there in service to their fellow American people.''

  This statement is such a farce. The government does not reflect our opinions as American people, it relects their best efforts to build a facade of justice. While I do not agree with McVeigh's actions, I agree with his motives completely. Our forefathers would be sick with disgust, as the majority of intelligent Americans are, knowing how the Constitution (and our freedom) has been absolutely RAPED by by the federal government.

  Again, I completely understand Timothy McVeigh's frustration with the government and his motives behind his actions. He knew very well what the repurcussions would be for his crime, but had the strength to stand for what he believes in (would any of us do the same?) in order to attempt to expose the government's gross lack of a justice system. I do not agree that the misguided act of taking the lives of innocent people was a solution to anything
  (or justified by any means), however, with that much hatred and frustration festering like an open wound.... an event that drastic was bound to take place sooner or later.

  The killer will be punished for his crime (by death, which I agree with in tis case), but I don't believe this should happen until ALL evidence pertaining to this crime is revealed to the American public, the very same people the judge in this case is supposedly attempting to pacify.

  ******I will always hope. Reality has a vile habit of shattering the spirit...
  when it is already broken.******