McVeigh vs Death Penalty

by Amazing 272 Replies latest jw friends

  • SixofNine
    SixofNine

    Still, murderers must go! Just decide now not to be one, Mommy . Conversely, decide now that if you ever really just have to take someone out 'cuz they pissed you off too much, that you should be eliminated from the pool of humanity.

    Down with murderers! Rapist and pedophiles too!

    Hey! lets start a mob! That's what society needs to give this 21st century a kick in the pants, a mob!

    Honestly people. Murder is just so wrong. The days for namby pamby dealing with killers is over. The days for zero tolerance for crimes that have zero excuse, are here. Off with their heads! I'm just so over this mock tenderness.

  • Seeker
    Seeker

    What is the purpose of a penalty? Isn't it to deter, and punish? Does the death penalty serve this purpose? No. Therefore I am against it. Especially in McVeigh's case, as I will explain.

    First of all, how silly is it to get mad at McVeigh for killing people and then to respond by saying, "Let's kill him!" If killing is wrong, killing is wrong. Period.

    Secondly, does the death penalty deter? No, it does not. Crime rates seem unaffected by the use of, or lack of, the death penalty. Why should it deter? What criminal, in the heat of the moment, is thinking of future consequences? It is mental aberration to try to kill someone, so why would we expect rational thought to be going through their mind at that time?

    Thirdly, does the death penalty punish? Well, yes, but not as harshly as life in prison. Death is an out. Lack of freedom is life long. Besides, once deterrence is removed from the equation, and all you are left with is punishment, you really are talking about revenge, pure and simple. "Hey, he killed those people!" "Oh yeah, we'll let's kill him!!" Revenge. That realization that death penalty is purely a revenge motive doesn't mean I don't understand that motive from the families of the victims. I would hate the guy too in such a case. But I wouldn't want to kill him. That would just put me on his level. Settling matters with force. This is the 21st-century, and we are above settling personal matters with force.

    Fourthly, in McVeigh's case, killing him is exactly what he wants. Oh sure, no one really wants to die, but in the abstract this is his goal. He will have made his point the moment he is killed by the U.S. government! People who think the way he does will get the message, that the U.S. government is out to kill any who don't meekly go along with the program. They are wackos, but that's the point. You play right into their hands by engaging in this vengeance. A martyr is born.

    You want to punish McVeigh? Lock him away so he can see, year by year, decade by decade, the failure of his revolution. Nothing will dishearten him more than that.

    Finally, for all I disagree with McVeigh, I can look at the situation in the abstract and say that he views himself as a revolutionary and revolutions results in innocent deaths. We applaud the American revolution because we agree with the end results. The British weren't so enthusiastic with the results, and view the revolutionaries as traitors. (The native Americans had an even worse view of the results)

    So today, McVeigh is viewed as a revolutionary by those who follow the same idealogy, and a traitor by the rest of us. Nothing new about that, it's the nature of revolution. We just happen to disagree with this particular revolution, that's all. Changes our entire viewpoint.

  • Seeker
    Seeker
    Murder is just so wrong. The days for namby pamby dealing with killers is over.

    Good point. Let's murder them.

  • SixofNine
    SixofNine

    No. Let's execute them.

    And this "Death penalty does not deter" stuff??? Yes it does. The killer will not kill again. (they like to do that you know, or had you not noticed?) That, my friend, is the purest form of deterence. People are less likely to kill if they know they will not get away with it. Am I saying no one will ever kill knowing that? No, I am not saying that. But it does mitigate.

    Not that anyone would really know. The death penalty has not really been practiced in a long, long time, here in America. One execution for every so thousand murders (don't know the real ratio), does not a death penalty make.

  • Seeker
    Seeker
    And this "Death penalty does not deter" stuff??? Yes it does. The killer will not kill again. (they like to do that you know, or had you not noticed?)

    Don't be snide; stick to the issues. Death penalty does not deter, for crime rates remain unaffected. You feel it does deter, provide evidence. As for the killer not killing again, so will locking him up for life serve that purpose. McVeigh will never kill again, regardless of whether or not he is killed. Therefore the death penalty adds nothing to the deterrence question.

    That, my friend, is the purest form of deterence. People are less likely to kill if they know they will not get away with it. Am I saying no one will ever kill knowing that? No, I am not saying that. But it does mitigate.
    I already pointed out why I feel that reasoning is incorrect. Do you have a reason for disagreeing?

    Not that anyone would really know. The death penalty has not really been practiced in a long, long time, here in America. One execution for every so thousand murders (don't know the real ratio), does not a death penalty make.
    I can't believe you just said that! Never mind, I have nothing to discuss with you if your idea is that we need to kill a whole bunch more people before we can see how this works out. You are no different from the murderers; only your motive changes.
  • mommy
    mommy

    Seeker,
    Well said!

    Six,
    Please tell me you thought about your post before posting.

    Honestly people. Murder is just so wrong.
    I agree 100% Sixo.
    wendy
  • SixofNine
    SixofNine
    What criminal, in the heat of the moment, is thinking of future consequences?

    huh? Most of them, I would say. I'm really questioning where you are coming from here. We humans do have quite an ability to think, even in the heat of the moment. And we do. Those of us who don't, won't, or can't, just are not safe to have walking around in society.

    That would just put me on his level.
    So if a mom whose child was blown to icky bits in the OKC bombing, revenged her childs death, you would consider her just as much a force of evil as McVeigh? I'm not saying it would be right, but you would consider her the same level of scum as McVeigh? Do I have this right from your statement above?

    Fourthly, in McVeigh's case, killing him is exactly what he wants.
    Who gives a flying f*** what he wants of doesn't want. It matters not, to this discussion or any discussion beyond his last meal. Before the bombing, it would have had great relevance to any associated with him. He lost that privilege.

    We just happen to disagree with this particular revolution, that's all. Changes our entire viewpoint.
    No. And why should it? No great epiphany there. Nothing particularly "revolutionary" about blowing up innocents.

    You know, in some cultures, in some revolutions, true believers in the cause will go to a public place, douse themselves with gasoline, and light themselves. I personally think they are crazy idiots (but then I haven't lived with the injustice they have). Still, it is soul-wrenching, gut twisting, and it makes me know that at least they really believed in their cause. It also makes me wonder what that cause was they so believed in. I also tend to believe that, while what they did to themselves was incredibly violent, they, and by association their cause, is dedicated to non violence, since they chose to make their point w/o taking innocents with them.

  • SixofNine
    SixofNine

    Mommy, surely you can see a difference between executing a murderer, and murder? If you can't, work at it till you can. 'Cuz the difference is there, and it is large.

  • SixofNine
    SixofNine
    You are no different from the murderers; only your motive changes.

    I'm profoundly sorry you see me that way. You are wrong, as innocents are not in danger from me.

  • mommy
    mommy
    I personally think they are crazy idiots (but then I haven't lived with the injustice they have). Still, it is soul-wrenching, gut twisting, and it makes me know that at least they really believed in their cause.

    Now Six, take that thought a step further. And realize how close you could be to that person, if your circumstances were different. Look how different your life is, associated with the JW lifestyle.

    Think just for a moment about something you feel very strongly in. Dang I sound like I am hypnotizing you..lol You get my point though don't you?
    wendy

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