Wealth, Poverty, and Morality

by SecondRateMind 226 Replies latest jw friends

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  gone for good

  There are serious factors contributing to world poverty that an ¨"equalization of cash" can´t fix and may possibly make worse.

  War - imagine if every hate filled religious lunatic world wide had $33,000 to pool into cult, hatred, jihad, proselytizing, - power is the currency here not money.

  Overpopulation - we are on the brink of extinction right now because we already consume more than the world can supply - $33,000 of "security" could lead to more reproduction, not less...

  Environmental destruction - is $33,000 given to a consumer society likely to go to even more consumerism/profit at the expense of the natural world..

  Not trying to be negative. In fact I admire your idealism and how you express it.
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  SecondRateMind

  BUT in a healthy economic society there MUST BE inequality.

  Uh huh. Why, exactly? Why is it better that 1 person owns a million $ of shares, than a thousand people each own a thousand $ of shares?

  
  IT TAKES AWAY INCENTIVE and incentive is the key.

  I think many in public service would be thoroughly insulted by your assumption that the only incentive that matters is a selfish, financial one. On the contrary, such as soldiers, nurses and politicians develop their careers, say from sergeant to colour sergeant, or nurse to specialist nurse, or back-bench MP to junior minister, out of a sense of vocation. Given their skills and aptitudes, experience and contacts, there is no doubt that all these types could take home a bigger pay-packet each month in the private sector. Yet they stay. How do you account for that, in the tawdry, self-centred, money-grubbing little world you propose?

  You say that capitalism works. I agree that it works reasonably well for some. And for a few it works extremely well indeed. But it does not work at all for those in vulnerable penury, who are liable to die from entirely preventable starvation and hunger related disease. And we should not leave them out of the calculus, when congratulating ourselves on how well the system works, just because they do not have the currency to express economic demand.

  Best wishes, 2RM.
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  humbled

  https://youtu.be/5BYpJVTdeAU

  From around 1968-70 documentary shows how work was melting away for these Kentucky miners. Like the miners in the UK when jobs left. Trying to retrain for other work their retraining was stopped. They don’t want welfare, handouts ( minute 35) . And sometimes they are accused of being lazy. But they are not.

  These are the grandparents of much of today’s poor. It’s a good film, l think.

  2RM, everyone l know would rather have a way to make a living. Neither man nor woman wants a handout. We need a living. Why can’t THAT happen?
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  SecondRateMind

  When I was active in the JW religion there was an attitude among the have-nots (who chose NOT to work), that the “haves” somehow owed them something. If you were affluent and didn’t throw money around to the deadbeats like it was confetti - you were considered “selfish”. Lots of envy along with laziness there!

  You touch on what is known as the free-rider problem. The analogy is made with a train fare dodger, who does not pay his fair share towards the running of the service, because he can get away with it. I admit this to be a genuine issue. I can only suggest that when such a free-rider is identified, there should be a gradual, progressive, withdrawal of privileges until such time as he gets the message and starts to make a proper contribution.

  Best wishes, 2RM.
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  SecondRateMind

  I'm just trying to figure out how 2RM justifies time spent online when he should be spending that time making money to send to the poor. That internet connection and web capable device must cost too. Seems like they're pretty rich compared to some. Even the poor in developed nations are in the top percentage of wealth comparatively. Put your money up and start being equitable. Take the lead.

  I do not generally respond to ad hominem aspersions. They are logical fallacies that do not merit a reply. I could be the worst hypocrite in the world, as you imply, and still what I say could be true and moral.

  But in this instance I will break my rule, and explain my circumstances. I live happily and contentedly within the financial constraints I proposed in the OP. And I still find a little money every so often to lend to budding entrepreneurs in the poorer parts of Africa. Sometimes this money is repaid, sometimes it isn't. When it is, I re-lend it to someone else. In this way, even what little I can afford stretches a long way, and helps a number of people help themselves. I realise such virtue might make you all want to puke, but there it is.

  As for being online; well, if I can achieve a little by myself, together we could all achieve a whole lot more. But first the awareness must be raised, and the arguments won. And that is what I am doing here, on this thread.

  Best wishes, 2RM.
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  SecondRateMind

  2RM, everyone l know would rather have a way to make a living. Neither man nor woman wants a handout. We need a living. Why can’t THAT happen?

  I think this is entirely correct. People generally do want an honest day's pay for an honest day's work. But my contention is that the reason they often don't get it is largely because the rich have claimed a prior right to the money, which they are unwilling to relinquish, even when the consequences may be fatal for the poor.

  Best wishes, 2RM
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  SecondRateMind

  War - imagine if every hate filled religious lunatic world wide had $33,000 to pool into cult, hatred, jihad, proselytizing, - power is the currency here not money.
  Overpopulation - we are on the brink of extinction right now because we already consume more than the world can supply - $33,000 of "security" could lead to more reproduction, not less...
  Environmental destruction - is $33,000 given to a consumer society likely to go to even more consumerism/profit at the expense of the natural world..

  Good points.

  In response:

  War. If all the world's money were to be equitably distributed, then a lot of the economic causes of conflict would evaporate instantly. Inequality is often the recruiting sergeant for terrorist organisations.

  Overpopulation. In the developed world, the birth rate is roughly around the replacement rate. The population is not growing, because women are educated and in control of their fertility and do not need to breed excessively to be sure of a few survivors to keep them in their old age.

  Environmental Destruction. Much of this is caused by the poor, because they have no choice. They have to take bad short-termist environmental decisions because they are better than just not surviving. Again, in the developed world, we have the wealth to afford a more enlightened, long term perspective, and look after the environment so that it continues to look after us.

  Thank you for your compliment.

  Best wishes, 2RM.
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  humbled

  2RM—I still find a little money every so often to lend to budding entrepreneurs in the poorer parts of Africa. Sometimes this money is repaid, sometimes it isn't. When it is, I re-lend it 2RM someone else. In this way, even what little I can afford stretches a long way, and helps a number of people help themselves.

  A good thing to do. I have heard this is often not even a large sum that makes a dramatic difference. Children in Zimbabwe who cannot afford even the $2 school fee do not go to school for every penny is for bare subsistence. That government betrayed the people. A little can do a lot. Small sums are do-able. A small gamble.

  Do you have an agent through which you work? How are you able to disperse funds? If you don’t mind me asking.
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  SecondRateMind

  Why, thank you. There are a number of microfinance charities operating this kind of scheme in the UK. I use a local organisation called Deki.

  Best wishes, 2RM.
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  Xanthippe

  Humbled, my daughter uses Kiva micro finance charity and has been lending small amounts since she was a teenager. I support Save the Children and UNICEF with very small amounts every month because it's true small amounts of money go a very long way in developing countries.

  Also those charities are part of the DEC that provides relief in natural disasters and war zones. UNICEF do amazing work vaccinating children against preventable diseases. Our tiny amounts given regularly are often an undreamed of sum to a person trying to work their way out of poverty or get medical help for their children.

  I believe we have power and we shouldn't give in to the idea it's hopeless. There are seven billion of us after all so in that sense 2RM we can all contribute to ridding the world of poverty but it is complex. Overpopulation, as you mentioned because of the lack of a social structure to finance people in old age.

  Religion is a large problem, the Dalits, the untouchables in India are still only able to get menial work - this is God's will apparently! They don't blame people for the caste they are born into according to the Indian guide on my trip there. Really! Corrupt governments that steel all the aid that is donated or insist on bribery for even education. Many, many problems still to be overcome.