My conclusion on the matter

by ExBethelitenowPIMA 81 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

cofty

Morality is the word we use to describe how we wrestle with the way we should or should not act in relation to others.
We have to decide on our objective - for example promoting the well-being of conscious creatures. Then we weigh up whether a proposed action advances that goal. This is all we actually mean by 'should' or 'should not' or 'right and wrong' or even 'good and evil'.
It is a moral fact that doing gratuitous injury to others is always 'bad'.
Christians complicate things by inserting an additional layer - the wishes or commands of a divine law-giver. But the law-giver has nothing to say about so many of the dilemmas that we face. In the case of the god of the bible we are faced with a law-giver who approves of things we all find repugnant. The truth is we have to filter god's moral commands by using the same rubrics that atheists use. In other words god is useless as a moral guide.
snare&racket

You have made many assumptions and stated them as fact. I think you have done the bravest and most scary part, daring to question. But now comes the hard part…. if you want answers, if truth matters, you have a lot of exciting reading ahead of you.
If I may pick one point you made, that life can’t be made from dead matter. This is simply incorrect in fact we have made synthesised life from scratch even the dna. Humans have made living things not found in nature.
https://www.biochemistry.org/media/o3udboxs/7synthetic-life-booklet.pdf
May I humbly suggest some fantastic resources as the WT theocratic education’ has done you and your inquisitive mind a disservice.
Ray Franz- Crisis of Conscience - a JW GB members memoir on leaving the JW’s
G Orwell - 1984 - a book on how people are manipulated, it will ring true for you
Bart Ehrman - Lost Christianities. A bible scholars that will open your eyes
Bill Bryson - a short history of nearly everything - fun summary of science history
Yuveal Noah Harri - Sapiens - a book summarising human history and progress
R Dawkins - The Greatest Show on Earth - summary of biological science and evolution
L Krauss - A Universe from Nothing - summary of big bang and universe
S Hawkins - A Brief History of Time - amazing book on physics & the universe
Big Dog

"It is a moral fact that doing gratuitous injury to others is always 'bad'."
Ok, that's what I thought you meant. A moral fact is another way of saying based on my opinion, belief, view of the universe, desired outcome etc etc doing gratuitous injury is always bad. Incidentally, my moral compass would agree with that statement.
The way you originally stated it seemed as if you were of the school of thought that there were certain moral absolutes which I don't believe there are. All morality from wherever it springs is a human and social construct and not scientifically verifiable. Physicist Sean Carroll argues that morality cannot be a part of science...and that the scientific method cannot answer moral questions. We don't have a periodic table of virtues and it is evident by the vastly different views of morality held by different cultures that it is a moral fact because we make it so.
I can understand when people echo Dostoyevsky's "If God does not exist, then everything is permitted, " the affirmation made by the character Ivan Karamazov in the The Brothers Karamazov. If one can escape from the law men and know they will never be judged, will they still behave morally? The lawlessness that often accompanies a breakdown in social order can certainly make one wonder if humans are truly moral creatures. The old saying is that civilization is three meals away from anarchy. I have seen the truth of that up close and personally.
The counter argument being that the fact that we have the capacity to create norms and law gives us proof of a moral consciousness independent from any supernatural source. Or is that simply each person's desire to be secure in their persons that they agree together that anything that someone else does that injures me is therefore wrong?
I'm splitting hairs here as an intellectual exercise, as I mentioned above my moral compass is pretty traditional by current American standards. We holding these truths to self-evident and so forth, but if there is no supreme being handing out moral absolutes then I can understand where people might feel that in the absence of said supreme being and fear of human punishment that morality might be pretty flexible and why shouldn't I do whatever the heck I want.
ExBethelitenowPIMA

Snareandaracket thank you for your post I have read at least 2 of those and am somewhat familiar with more, and I will put them on my reading list which is growing faster than I’m getting through them. I’m reading two books a week on average 100 books per year.
Here is my question coming from a previous JW PIMI now PIMA, what is the point of any kind of morality if it’s all blind chance?
If I put myself into that atheist box, I have maybe a few decades left then what is the point of morals? After all it’s survival of the fittest right? There is no God or anything else out there if the origin of the universe was just blind chance. This is a very depressing box to put yourself into.
No I will not put myself into that box but I will keep reading and thinking. It may be true it may not be, but I will not lose hope in the Bible even if I have lost faith in it.
Right now I think there is a chance the Bible is written by God but we just don’t get it as much as we think we do.
Phizzy

"Phizzy, the book "Life Arising"
Could you have meant Life Ascending, by Nick Lane?"
That's the one thanks.
To EXbe,
If you don't want Freedom of Mind ,and want to stay easily misled, as we all were by the org. that is your choice. But my advice is, do not stay in the Netherworld of the uninformed and uneducated. It is not a good or happy place.
It is natural to think of all the Big Questions once your mind has become open somewhat, and it IS frightening.
When I first walked away for good from the Org. I didn't know what would happen, would I lose all my JW family, friends and even my wife ? plus all the questions you are beginning to ask.
The Road To Freedom of Mind is a journey, you should walk along that Road at your own pace. A good rule of thumb is it takes a year for every decade you were in the Org. to expunge the effects of those years, as much as is possible.
But you MUST do your Homework ! Only accept that which has irrefutable evidence as being Truth along the way, some truths are hard to accept at first, but you soon adapt.
Just a word of caution, do not express what you think and feel right now on here, many on here will, out of a good heart, try to influence you, but what they offer cannot help you on your journey without checking what they say. So forget asking us, unless the matter is urgent, except where you are asking for irrefutable evidence of what you are studying. We will direct you to that, those of us so able.
Choose one thing, Fact Check what you find out, then go on to another, the Journey I have described is a pleasurable one, and as you drink from the Pure Waters of Real Truth, you will find fulfillment and happiness.
All the best !
ExBethelitenowPIMA

Phizzy I do want freedom of mind that’s why I don’t want to be misled. Have you even considered you are being misled?
If you won’t even consider it then you do not have freedom of mind.
I do have freedom of mind that’s why I’m keeping my mind open. It’s a good warning not be closed minded after waking up from any belief.
“The Road To Freedom of Mind is a journey, you should walk along that Road at your own pace.
But you MUST do your Homework ! Only accept that which has irrefutable evidence as being Truth along the way, some truths are hard to accept at first, but you soon adapt.”
very wise words indeed Phizzy. I will only accept irrefutable evidence which is why I can’t accept chance theory as the origin.
Ive talked with Cofty and others a lot on here and other places and they still can’t come up with any irrefutable evidence of chance theory. Some of the arguments are used by both chance theorists and creationists.
Phizzy if you think you have found irrefutable evidence of chance theory could you share it here in a concise pithy way? Please don’t do a Cofty and tell to read this or that book because the book can prove it but you can’t.
But then this has been tried as infinitum and people have spent their entire lives trying to prove chance or intelligence as the origin and this is why I’m agnostic I’m past all that.
I have taken a number of decades or intense study to get where I am so I don’t like somebody talking to me as if I will get to chance theory eventually if I do enough study.
I have studied intensely about 16 years ago I went through a very intense time trying to prove chance theory.
I think once you go through the amount of study and thought process I went through you will eventually come to the conclusion that nothing can be proven and it’s all about cognitive dissonance. I think that is what you are experiencing now Phizzy and please bear in mind I am saying this with the highest respect.
You believe what you want to believe and you search out things that support your belief system.
My way is to truly Walk The Road To Freedom of Mind and it is a journey, you should walk along that Road at your own pace.
But you MUST do your Homework ! Only accept that which has irrefutable evidence as being Truth along the way, some truths are hard to accept at first, but you soon adapt.
Be very careful believing you have irrefutable proof when you don’t and re examine without cognitive dissonance which is very very difficult. I know it may be hard to accept that what you previously believed to be irrefutable is actually refutable.
cofty

Ive talked with Cofty and others a lot on here and other places and they still can’t come up with any irrefutable evidence of chance theory.
Calling evolution by natural selection 'chance theory' shows that you - a) totally misunderstand the topic and b) have a completely closed mind and no interest in learning.
Please don’t do a Cofty and tell to read this or that book because the book can prove it but you can’t.
I have literally dozens of topics explaining the subject in detail in my own words. I have layed out some of that proof in direct conversation with you. Why are you lying? I offered you a reading list so that you can study it further. You are too lazy/closed minded to do so.
ExBethelitenowPIMA

Cofty you and I both know that cognitive dissonance means you are closed minded. Both creationism and evolution both say please read these books. Yes I agree you should read both sides.
and there are only two side Cofty. It’s either chance theory or intelligence but I know you don’t like the fact there are only two options at the very origin.
If you are coming round to the idea of intelligence being involved that’s really great. But the very origin can only be chance or intelligence it has to be either of those.
cofty

Here is a proposal for you made in complete sincerity.
I will start a new thread on how DNA proves the common ancestry of humans with other species. It will be presented in accessible language. Do you agree to engage in the conversation with an open mind?
ExBethelitenowPIMA

Yes please

My conclusion on the matter

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