The Disfellowshipping/Killing of Jane Part 2

by jst2laws 47 Replies latest watchtower scandals

  • BluesBrother
    BluesBrother

    Rabbit

    You asked about the attitude to depression . In my day, up to the late 90's , we were encouraged to be helpfull and tolerant to the "Depressed souls", but only as far as listening to their complaints and trying to motivate them again. If they did anything judicially wrong, then the normal procedures followed unchanged. One KM School instructor once told us that "Mental illness is not a mitigating factor. If a person is mentally able to live normally. ie, not a retard, then normal rules apply"

    I guess they would have to plead repentance, and grovel for forgiveness like everyone else.

  • Simon
    Simon

    Steve, it's easy to feel responsible for what happened to her but the JC process and your involvement in it was nothing more than just an element of her life and not the whole reason.

    After having been treated badly by the local elders I could either have done something silly or decided to do something positive (which I did). The choice though and the responsibility for what I did was entirely mine. We can't blame all ills in life or lay all of our own bad decisions at the feet of elders. The ultimate responsibility is the persons themselves.

    You were following the rules and procedures that you felt were for the best and that she herself also had "signed up to". Yes, we know that the process was/is wrong but the intent was good.

    Don't beat yourself up over this ! You have and are helping a lot of people.

  • cruzanheart
    cruzanheart
    not a retard

    Gee, I just love the technical jargon they employ, don't you? Shows just how much training they have.

    Nina

  • Rabbit
    Rabbit
    Rabbit:
    Taught???
    LOL
    That's a joke, right?

    I knew one Elder who ponced around claiming that he was "a trained counsellor", thanks to all the instruction received from the WTS.
    He was one of the worst of the lot.

    Depression is rarely taken into account, when the deeds (fruits ) are what are being examined.

    Little Toe: No-o-o...it was not a joke. I KNEW they had no formal training, but, I had NO idea just what they did

    think about such things. I know knew a couple of witnesses, they are dead now -- suicide. Who I knew were having

    problems 'worthy' of 'counciling by the elders', since I have Major Depression, I've always wondered. I know when

    I was badly depressed I would be more prone to ha,ha -- 'unclean thoughts' . When someone is in that vulnerable

    'mode', I think they are more likely to 'mess-up' according to JW rules.

    BluesBrother: Thanks to you, too for explaining that side of JC meetings that most of us find mysterious, confusing

    and scary. I've learned a lot in the short tome I've been here.

    --Lee

  • Rabbit
    Rabbit

    Just to clarify -- I guessed I had hoped that during the much vaunted 'Elders School' I always heard about,

    that this important subject would be discussed.

    Thanks again, Lee

  • bebu
    bebu

    ((((((((((Steve))))))))))))

    It seems to me that the greatest men have ALL become great because they overcame or were greatly changed thru the consequences of a terrible flaw or experience. It seems to give them a humility and care that would never, otherwise, have been gained. And they develop a courage that challenges and encourages many others around them. And compassion and forgiveness that replaces pride and judgment. In other words, a lot of heat a pressure made a diamond. (But, interestingly, not all people become "diamonds", though experiences may be similar.)

    The hardest burden is that the past cannot be changed, and this is hard to accept. The choice one grapples with is whether to have faith that God is somehow great enough (and hasn't actually been all pissed and spiteful all along) to bring something beautiful from all these ashes we see. But I think this is His most important business here. And our expectations about what is lovely ("never making mistakes, or at least, not big mistakes") is a lot smaller than His (sensitizing and softening and enlarging our stubborn hearts in order to make room for Himself). So don't be so hard on yourself, and don't give in toward bitterness. The value of hope and faith might seem more clear. (Well, they do for me at moments when I'm despairing of myself!)

    I hope it's comforting to remember that the story is actually not 'over' yet; and that it is very strange how "minor" people or "minor" events make for very great changes in much larger popluations. It is a hard act of faith, to trust that in God's hands, it will be all worked out. I hope you can find it.

    (I suspect He has already started; you have already become a type of diamond thru the trials you overcame before.)

    With ever the same dignity and respect I had held for you before,

    Bev (bebu)

  • czarofmischief
    czarofmischief

    I have to agree with Bev.

    Plus, the fact that you care so deeply about Jane shows that you are redeemable.

    I don't know if you are still familiar with the Bible, but remember Paul? How he actually helped murder Stephen? And then went on a reign of terror that persecuted Christians. I think his zeal in later life, and his passion for the Christ, came from his guilt and his pain over that matter. In fact, I think that depression over his former life was the "angel of Satan that keeps slapping" him.

    But God's answer was both comforting and did not spare a single iota of pain - "God's power is being made perfect through your weakness".

    So yes, it hurts. It should. But you should also accept the pain as something that can motivate future correct behavior, and not let it overwhelm you.

    CZAR

  • LittleToe
    LittleToe

    Rabbit:It's ok, I was letting a little sarcasm out, though it wasn't intentionally directed at anyone other than the WTS.

    Elders schools were not all they are cracked up to be. It's mainly a matter of keeping the Elders singing from the same hymn sheet, regarding policy, etc.

    During the last Elders school (Dec 2001), which I just got before DA'ing, there was a single demo on shepherding. Ironically it was how to deal with someone who had doubts after the 1995 "New Light" on the generation of 1914.

    Personally I felt inadequate to help, in many of the shepherding situations. I empathised, as best I could, muttered a few consoling words, and struggled to find an appropriate article, before praying with the individual and then worried about them for days and months on end.
    The only real training was on-the-job, by trial and error (and boy were some folks on the receiving end of the latter).

  • reboot
    reboot

    ((((((((steve)))))))) Please don't do this to yourself.

    There are many things we can blame ourselves for in this life; but someone's suicide is'nt one of them. When the decision's been reached,it feels likea relief and asking help from others is the last thing on your mind; and how were you to know it would happen? I think you should remember all the times you've let someone lean on you and be proud of yourself for being such a warm person.I have a feeling you've always been like this

  • jst2laws
    jst2laws

    I want everyone to know I am OK now. I was a mess last night. I should not have posted while feeling bad. This thing did catch me off guard, and I was angry and feeling like . . . Oh well! You have all been so caring and absolutely right in your comments. As Shutterbug pointed out I needed to listen to my own counsel, "let it go". I have. But you all know how this sort of thing makes your mind rush through all the memories connected to a particular person and your interaction with them. To be honest, I think Chris needs a pat on the back.

    But still I can't help but think ... if I had kept silent ...

    Chris, most of us live with the opposite, regret for HAVING "kept silent". As several have said here to me, there are a multitude of people and issues involved when a person finally decides to step out. You already know that, and I hope you are OK. So I worked hard today, came home and got into the hot tub. I had to get out, freezing and dripping just to get the camera and snap the picture below. It was so beautiful for a moment I felt guilty I was alive. But then I remembered this was not rational. I enjoyed the sunset, and a glass of wine. Anyone who survives the Watchtower experience should, every day, thank God they are alive. Everyone of you who posted words of encouragement, and those who emailed and PM'd me, thank you. And enjoy the sunset, everyday. Steve Double click the picture below

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