by Satanus 69 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
judging by how things are going down here, I truly believe the Almighty Gods are directing their attention to some other project other than life on earth.
Perhaps the JW theory that God is allowing plenty of time for mankind to realize they cannot govern themselves is right. They are correct in some respects, you all know.
DY
There is a difference between believing there is no god and not believing there is a god--both are atheistic, though popular usage has ignored the latter
In fairness to ThiChi, Rem was being selective.
The term "Atheism" covers both categories.
The former category appear to be most militant (conjecture, I know).
ThiChi,
Cool, now we are making progress. Your points are not to disprove atheism, but to give good reasons to believe in god. The reasons you have provided are not good enough for me to accept the existence of the Christian god. Some quick points:
1. The fact that the universe as we know it has a beginning is well known and is not evidence for god. The fact is that uncaused events are observed in QM. Also, to assert that the Universe must have a cause, but god does not is special pleading. Also, the hypothesis that this universe is but one of many caused by a meta-universe is just as compelling as a god hypothesis. The god hypothesis does not do any better at explaining the universe than any other materialist explanation so far.
2. The strong anthropic principle is not compelling. The weak anthropic principle in which the only reason we are able to question the odds of our existence is because we exist makes sense to me. The antropic argument is extremely... anthropocentric. The fact is that human life (as we know it) occupies the tiniest fraction of the entire volume of the Universe and even the Earth). If human life was the reason an intelligent being created the universe, why did he make the vast majority of the Universe inhospitable to human life? Also, the odds can be crunched many different ways, but they really mean nothing. Perhaps there is a physical or mathematical reason why our universe had to be this way? Maybe this universe is one of an infinite number of universes? Just like a lottery, the odds of winning are extremely small, but the odds of someone winning (depending on the type of lottery) can be inevitable.
Also, a critical examination of the universe and biology shows that intelligence is lacking in the design. The design of the universe and life is consistent with unintelligent processes such as evolution. This argument does not give me a reason to believe in the Christian god.
3. There are no objective morals. The only consistency you see in morals in different societies are ones that are necessary to keep said society stable. Societies that do not implement such mores quickly disintegrate. It is easy to see how morals throughout time have been dynamic - even in the bible polygammy and slavery were allowed. Today people in many parts of the world find such practices immoral... some do not. This argument does not give me a reason to believe in the Christian god.
4. There is no proof of the resurrection of Jesus. The evidence you supplied is not contemporary. I have looked into this issue carefully and I have not found anything convincing, thus this does not give me a reason to believe in the Christian god.
5. I have not experienced the Christian god, so this is not a good reason for me to believe in him. Note that other gods, such as Brahmma are claimed to be experienced by people of other religions. I do not believe in Brahmma for the same reason I don't believe in the Christian god.
rem
:Dr. Curley would have to prove that there is another world that God could have created with this much knowledge of God and His salvation but with less evils. But how could anyone prove such a thing? Again, it is pure speculation. And, therefore, the problem of evil, I think, is simply inconclusive and doesn't disprove Christian theism.""
Obviously I can't prove it, but don't you believe in Heaven and that angels live there? Isn't heaven devoid of evil? Does this keep angels from knowing god?
No, I do not believe in Angels or Heaven, but I'm pointing out a logical inconsistancy with this argument.
rem
Tichi
To cut down on atheist vs theist arguement, i composed the question simply, 'what is god doing'. Of the 5 points you pasted, the last one tenuously attempts to answer the question. The problem w that answer is that only a few claim to experience god directly. Most base it on faith, and so admit that it isn't a real meeting w god. People either experience god, or they don't. Even so, i don't see how the experience can be proven.
SS
LT,
Actually, it gets even more complicated than that. Did you know that you are also a "millitant" atheist (in the sense that you deny that a god exists)? I may be speaking out of turn here, but I would assume that you believe that Zeus does not exist (me too). In that sense, though sometimes not strictly rational, you and I make a positive assertion that Zeus (and Santa, etc.) do not exist.
Typically this is the line of thinking for your average atheist. They may specifically deny certain definitions of god (such as Zeus or Jehovah)... sometimes rationally (logical impossibility) and sometimes irrationally (simply no evidence). The average atheist does not, however, deny that any god exists.
That would be an example of a real millitant atheist and I've never run accross one myself, though I'm sure some must exist somewhere. Now many atheists may be millitant in their actions and debating techniques, but their beliefs themselves are usually not as millitant as you might think.
rem
Rem - I make a positive assertion that Zeus (and Santa, etc.) do not exist.
Whoa, whooooaaaa - now you're attacking my beliefs !!!!
Actually, everyone is practically one book, one God away from athiesm/agnostic beliefs. Christians do not believe in Allah and the Koran; or the Book of Mormon; or Hinduism & the Vedas; etc. Likewise, a Muslim does not believe in Jehovah and the Bible. They don't need "reasons", they just do not believe. Its not a leap to understand where an athiest is coming from. They do not believe the whole lot.
Rem:
The design of the universe and life is consistent with unintelligent processes such as evolution.
The universe evolved, huh?
But where did the Monkey nebula go?
Just funning ya.
Good post.
You mean Zeus (father of the gods - maybe angels) didn't exist? What's in a name?
Of course that doesn't mean that I swallow the whole mythology surrounding him.
So, still call me a militant atheist? I'm perhaps more tolerant than you suspect.
I may just take the title asantaist, though
SS:
As one who believes they have "experienced God", I'd have to agree that it's impossible to prove "subjective experiences" to the satisfaction of a critic or cynic.
The best you can achieve is to convey a little of what was experienced. Unfortunately it's likely to be dismissed due to personal interpretation, but IMHO that's to the loss of the sceptic.
I'd like to address the question from a different (cultural) standpoint. On this view, God had a beginning. Before the 6th century BC there was no God -- only gods.
And, yes, God came into existence by negating the (other) gods. As Nietzsche put it, "the gods are dead -- they died laughing when they heard one of them claiming he was the only one." Negation is at the very basis of the concept of God (still present when monotheists deny the other monotheists' God as someone said). The destruction of "idols" which was fundamental to the idea of God was to set back someday against God himself as the "great Idol" (Nietzsche again).
So what is this God (who is only 2500 or so years old at most) doing now? To any overall world view he is probably dead, since even the most theist political thinkers do not believe anymore in theism, but in secularism as the common space in which the different religious communities may coexist. Or maybe he is sound asleep and the believers are his last dream -- or nightmare...
SS: The definitions provided shows my original points were not out of line, based on the Question: "No Proof that God Exists." Which was not a REM question to begin with. I included the wide range of views for everyone?s benefit.
WHat is your proof that hardly anyone has been contacted by God? The evidence proves otherwise.
REM: Well, you provide no proof to convince me there is no God.....
