by truthseeker 61 Replies latest jw friends
there are no bibles up on mars I don't even think there's cars
there is a strip of alien bars a place to sit and see the stars
and they have tasty little drinks and you can sit and see a sphinx
there's aliens all around the place there's even a gynormous face
They don't care about the end their just drinking with a friend
Well, isn't the question about whether colonizing Mars an invalidation of so-called "Bible prophecy" the subject at hand? There would have to be such a thing as Bible prophecy in the first place, no? If one can prove that there is no such thing, isn't that still part of the same subject? That was what I was doing (if you followed along from the beginning).
Only Christians like the JWs believe in such things as the Bible foretelling and mapping out the future of the earth. It isn't taking the OP off topic if one proves that there is no such thing to begin with.
What may be the problem is that there are some people I've met that want the JW concept of "Bible prophecy" to be real, as if the Jews really intended such a thing. But when you offer critical analytical data from Judaism to show that such a concept is of Gentile origin, that makes some people uncomfortable. Some people need the "Bible prophecy" concept to exist as an intention from us Jews in order to have something to "prove" their current convictions about how wrong "Bible prophecy" is.
There is no such thing as the Gentile concept of "Bible prophecy," ergo colonizing Mars doesn't invalidate something that doesn't exist. Christians made up the concept of a "march of nations" and a foretelling of the earth's eternal future being in Scripture.
At least for our Jewish Scripture, it has no such "prophecy," which is what I was pointing out. And someone raised points about establishing this, so I answered.
The OP raised a question about a concept that is moot because there is no such thing as "Bible prophecy." Colonizing Mars can't invalidate something only Fundies and JWs say is real.
The solution is simple: When the Bible talks about the earth, it means an overlapping Earth, that is to say, whatever celestial body that humans from earth are able to reside on. Consider: if humans did establish a colony on Mars then what will one human say to another human if, while both are walking outside, they encounter an object protruding out of the Martian soil? Will the one human say to the other: "what is that protruding out of the Mars"? That hardly seems likely. No doubt the human will ask the other: "what is that protruding out of the earth?". So evidently the word earth as used in the bible, does not refer specifically and exclusively to planet earth but rather, has an overlapping application, referring to whatever solid surface of dust that humans reside on.
Well, again, the question appears to be based on the scientific spin the JW's attribute to Genesis. In other words, the statement, "Now the earth was formless and desolate..." is believed to describe the formation of the planet itself, ostensibly with Jehovah as the Architect. (Like Slartibartfast of Magrathea for Douglas Adams fans...) That is an anachronism.
I don't believe any of this stuff, but to be fair, invalidating "Bible prophecy" for JW's doesn't necessarily invalidate it for other Christians. For that matter, the JW's themselves aren't shy about adapting when they have to. (...and then pretending that the new interpretation is what they've always believed.)
TD,
The concept of "Bible prophecy" is not one of mainstream Christianity anymore either.
Being exposed only to the doctrine of the Watchtower and learning about the Bible and other religions through its filter can create what I call the "Marie Antoinette Effect." Especially upon leaving the JWs and rejecting all religion (which can be a fine thing to do), a problem can occur that we are left believing that all religion is like what we were exposed to from this very American, anglosphere-centric, Adventism-based cult. Many ex-Mormons born into that religion have a similar experience sometimes.
The idea that the Bible has a foretelling of world history in both the Old and New Testaments has been rejected by all mainstream Christianity. The Holocaust was the turning point for the revision of much Christian theology. Christianity's direct and indirect involvement in the Shoah led to the Christian-Jewish dialogues that began around 1950. Originally started (and actually initiated) by the Catholic Church, the dialogues created reform in all forms of Christian religion, even indirectly initiating Vatican II which changed Catholicism forever.
Teachings like supersessionism and rejection of the Jewish exegesis on their own Scriptures have been officially done away with in mainstream Christianity. This includes the idea of a foretold "march of nations" predicted in Daniel and other books. Such ideas actually played a part in the anti-Semitism that led up to the Holocaust, and thus the idea of such a forecast of Bible prophecy was dismissed from all major Christian denominations likely before most of us here were even born. Even the so-called "70 Weeks Prophecy" of Daniel has recently been rejected by mainstream Christianity as a prophecy about Jesus. For instance, the Catholic Church now teaches the exact same view on the 70 weeks as does Judaism.
But many of us who grew up in the JW world and left religion entirely are quite unaware of these changes. They didn't happen in Watchtower-land, and we weren't taught exactly about what was really happening in the real world of theology. Rejecting religion often means not keeping up on what really changed.
So we sometimes leave the JWs thinking that all Christians believe in Bible prophecy regarding the earth. Some still do, like the other cults that keep predicting a date for the end of the world. Like Marie Antoinette of whom legends says was unaware that people who had no bread to feed their children would at least surely have cake to give them, ex-JWs are sometimes products of being just as closed off from the real world of religion. Some of the reasons we might become atheist may not even be a thing in any other religion, but coming from a closed off society we can sometimes be like Marie Antoinette.
One friend wrote me that if Bible prophecy isn't really a thing, then he can't be an atheist anymore because that is the main reason he rejected God. I told he could still be an atheist even though Bible prophecy is not a real thing outside of the Watchtower and a few Fundamentalists Christian movements. The fact that the Bible isn't anything like the Jehovah's Witnesses taught doesn't automatically mean God exists. It only means Bible prophecy also doesn't exist.
Thus moving to Mars or living anywhere in space cannot invalidate a concept that doesn't exist.
there is no such thing as "Bible prophecy."
at least not a valid, real, or validated prophecy, that could be rendered invalid.
David Jay, those are good points.
JWs are taught about other religions sort of from a 19th century, or at least early 20th century, perspective.
Most JW ideas about "false religion" stem from FW Franz, who became a "Bible Student" in 1913 and was secluded in Bethel from the 1920's onward.
In that isolated, sheltered environment, it's not surprising that his view of "Babylon the Great" was stuck on the way it was when he was a young man.
And by the time the changes you mention became mainstream, he was already pretty well old and decrepit, and undoubtedly unaware that such changes were taking place.
David Jay
I always appreciate your comments and read them with a great deal of interest. As a minor point of clarification, my background is actually not JW.
If by "mainstream," you have in mind orthodox flavors of Christianity and Anglicanism, I would mostly agree with you, but the number of Protestant denominations who view the Jewish prophets as fortune tellers is legion. (Especially in the U.S.)
(continuation - portion cut off for some reason)
It would be nice if we could wave a magic wand and erase the effects of Protestant fundamentalism with one bold stroke, but after more than thirty years of conversation with both ex-JW's and ex-Mormons, I don't believe that to be the case.
I recently participated in the following discussion with a couple of J-dubs:
If Satan and his demons were cast down (and restricted) to the earthly realm in 1914, does that mean if humans started a colony on Mars that Satan and his demons would be unable to influence them?
It was interesting to see how everyone sought every possible scenario of how those settlers would, in fact, continue to be subject to Satanic influence. It was if they actually preferred that scenario vs. one where a person could actually escape the clutches of Satan.
