by Sea Breeze 32 Replies latest watchtower bible
Passages such as 1Sa 15:3. We were told as JWs to try to picture Bible events in our minds. Picturing this would be worse than watching any R-rated horror movie I'm aware of.
Killing of infants & children? How did they kill the infants? Did they hack them with a sword? Stab them?
Slaughtering of innocent animals? As one who is concerned about animal welfare, I just can't see why a just God would have the animals slaughtered.
Try to picture this event and hear the screams and feel the pain.
OMG Seabreeze- what an eye opener to prove the org wrong in that they say Michael, the archangel is Jesus!
How many times have I read that and NEVER got the point of what it said!
Michael was ONE of the archangels, there are others in that position Gabriel for one-yet the org picked Michael to be "Jesus". Did he(Jesus) --as all in heaven and earth was created by him, create Michael who then became Jesus? how controverted in that?
Jesus created Michael who later became Jesus- am I wrong in that answer- according to org, yes- according to logic, no!
Jesus created Michael who later became Jesus- am I wrong in that answer- according to org, yes- according to logic, no!
Yes, you got it right. Completely illogical. Here is that Hebrews 1 verse in context. My comments are in bold:
4 having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
5 For to which of the angels did He ever say:
“You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You”?
(Jesus was begotten because he has the same essence as Jehovah. Conversely, angels were created, not begotten)
And again:
“I will be to Him a Father,
And He shall be to Me a Son”?
6 But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says:
“Let all the angels of God worship Him.”
(Angels are commanded to woship Jesus because he has the same essence as his father. As a side note, he has the same essence as his mother too, making him related to us as a "kinsman redeemer".
7 And of the angels He says:
“Who makes His angels spirits
And His ministers a flame of fire.”
8 But to the Son He says:
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
Jehovah calls Jesus God because... again he has the same essence as his father as an "only begotten son".
"Some miserable bald 'prophet' that got bears to brutally murder children because he had hurty feelings."
That never bothered me. I thought that was cool. Got to teach those brats.
@Sea Breeze - My big one was:
Rev. 20: 5 "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished."
I never could understand how the bible couldn't get this right since everyone (righteous and unrighteous) were supposed to be resurrected during the Thousand Year Reign according to WT publications.
I couldn't understand it either when I was in the Wt. But how many
times did we hear 2 Pet 3:8 “…one day is like a thousand years and a thousand
years like one day”? But Wt. decides
that in the most symbolic book of the Bible, it is necessary to apply the “thousand
years” literally, as if God’s timetable is the same as ours on earth?
If I look closely at the scriptures, the bulk of the symbolic number of anointed (144,000), sealed in heaven and who are the “first resurrection”, never “worshiped the beast or its image” which is the “spirit-breathed” (spirit-directed) beast of Revelation 13:1,2,15. They never wore its symbolic “mark” of identity, that guided their mind and actions (Rev 20:4; Rev 13:16,17)
This group “came to life (through their testimony about the Christ and dying as he did - 1 John 5:12) over their lifetime, and reigned with Christ for a thousand years”. (Rev 20:4,5; Ps 110:1,2; 14:1; Heb 12:22-24) A symbolic “thousand years”.
After that time period is over, Satan is set free from “not perceiving” (meaning of Hades/abyss), to DECEIVE the “remaining ones of the woman’s seed” – the last group of anointed. (Rev 12: 1-4,15,17; 20:7-10) These anointed DO worship the beast that is directed by a composite false prophet. (Rev 13:11-15) They are taken “captive”, and conquered by it. (Col 2:8; Rev 13:10,7) The Beast “makes war” with them, blaspheming who they are, and mocking them, which we clearly see happening to the anointed, especially recently in the Wt magazines.
The anointed either remain conquered in the organization, cowering under the rulership of the elder body and governing body, or they remain because they love the organization (2 Thess 2:9-10; Rev 13:4). But there are those who speak up and expose the lies, even if it means they are disfellowshipped – spiritually “killed”. (Rev 11:1-3,7; 13:15; 6:9-11)
THESE are the ones who gain victory over the beast. (Rev 11:7-8,11-12)
“I also saw something like a sea of glass mixed with fire, and those who had won the victory over the beast, its image, and the number of its name, were standing on the sea of glass with harps from God.” Rev. 15:2
They are who comprise the “great crowd” that come out of the great tribulation/Armageddon, which is caused by the two Beasts to begin with. (Rev 16:13-16)
So, two groups – the main group of “144,000” never fell prey to the beasts of Revelation 13. (Rev 7:4-8) But the last group, a remnant, face deception and either conquer it (Rev 7:9-15), or remain right where they are.
The victorious ones join into the symbolic number of “144,000”.
Revelation 20:5 – “The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed.”
They complete the Bride of Christ united with her husband. From there, the New Covenant/promise of life, brings forth the rest of God’s children in the Kingdom. (Gal 4:26; Rom 8:19,21; Rev 5:10; 21:1-4;22:1-2; Isa 66:7-8)
Matt 24:24,25 - For there will arise false christs, and false prophets, and they will show great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the chosen ones. Behold, I have told you beforehand.”
The ”thousand years” began in the first century. (Ps 110:1-3;2:2-3,9) It ended when the Watchtower was born. If Jesus tells us that our words will be our judge in the last day, why would we face another judgment a thousand literal years into the Kingdom of God? All the promises of eternal life that Jesus had made for those believing in him, obeying his teachings, and who are persecuted for his name’s sake, are wiped out, nullified, by the Watchtower’s lie of a thousand years of peace after a bloody Armageddon, only to have another Armageddon based on deceit. (Matt 12:33-37; John 5:24; 6:46; 11:25)
For those of us coming out of the organization, and hopefully more will, haven’t we already had enough deception to conquer, family to lose, persecution and shunning from those whom we thought loved us? (Matt 10:16-23)
Besides, it will be literally impossible for a "Gog and Magog" to "surround the camp of the saints/anointed" in the Kingdom when all will be ruling with Jesus Christ.
Revelation 20:9-10
''Spare the rod and spoil the child''.
Hi Konagirl,
Here's a good discussion centered on the leaders the apostles trained and what they predominately thought about a literal thousand reign: https://colemanford.wordpress.com/2011/07/30/the-millenium-what-the-early-church-believed-part-1-of-4/
@Sea Breeze, Thank you! Ill be sure to read it.
My favorite texts from the bible that make me wonder what god was thinking, and in turn the Jews and Christians and of course the WT try to ignore. I have not brought this up since the Royal Commission in Australia into child sexual abuse.
From Deuteronomy firstly Ch22 vs 22
" If a man is found lying down with a woman who is the wife of another man, both of them must die together, the man who lay down with the woman as well as the woman. So you must remove what is bad from Israel."
Ok this is for context ,so adulterers are FOUND and god says they must die and the reason is given to keep Israel spiritually clean.
Next from Deut: CH 22 Vs 23 -24another example
" If a Virgin is engaged to a man, and another man happens to meet her in the city and lies down with her , 24 you should bring them both out to the gate of that city and stone them to death, the girl because she did not scream in the city and the man because he humiliated the wife of his fellow man. So you must remove what is evil from your midst."
So an engaged girl is viewed as in marraige ,and because she did not scream it is assumed it was consensual sex,the text says nothing as to whether she was overpowered to the point of her mouth being covered and therefore could not be heard by anyone! In vers: 25 - 27 we see the lesson continues with the same man but in a different location and circumstance.
Continuing Deut: 22 vs 25 -27 THIS is key to showing the failure of the WT explanation of the 2 witness rule they use!
" If, however , the man happened to meet the engaged girl in the field and the man overpowered her and lay down with her, the man who lay down with her is to die by himself, 26 and you must do nothing to the girl. The girl has not committed a sin deserving of death. This case is the same as when a man attacks his fellow man and murders him." 27 For he happened to meet her in the field ,and the engaged girl screamed, but there was no one to rescue her .
The example above shows what should happen if the same man raped a virgin in the field with no one around to witness her screams. So the only witness is her word ,he dies for rape at her word for their was no one to witness this crime. So how can little children be not believed when people in the WT rape and molest them. And even when molested children or women ,when they keep quiet till adulthood and reveal the perpetrator ,why does the WT not reflect on these scriptures instead of incorrectly applying a two witness rule that clearly does not apply to circumstances like these and then DF people for holding to their truth ?
And following on from these scriptures above, Deut; 22 vs 28-29 where a girl and a man are discovered having sex where he siezed her (so no fault of hers) ,the man must pay the girls father ,but worse, she is forced to marry the offender. How unfair is that , and he cannot divorce her but she is tied to him as a slave bought at a price .Disgusting ,The man has already shown his violent nature but here we have this poor bound to this filth for life.
I think if I was that woman I would be looking very hard at shortening her anguish by doing him in.
So wheres gods wisdom here? Where is the WTS protecting the flock with the 2 witness rule when the scriptures by this example clearly show them badly in error ,even cruel .To show their attitude my own personal experience with my ex wife ,where she had been molested by her elder father for years as a kid ,we married and then she told me what happened and so began about 15 years of trying to get the WTS to handle this properly . It wrecked my health at the time .They never reported it to the police so she did. One elder in Queesland Australia when trying to talk to him about the WT stance said to me that if of a 100 people they found one innocent person who had been falsely charged of molestation, then the WTS is vindicated in applying the 2 witness rule . So there you have it ,and so began our leaving that unloving hypocritical religion.
Terrible thing to go through wozza.
Galatians 3: 26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
Oooops, guess we weren't supposed to pick up on this one either.
The another one I remember bothering me as a kid was Samuel's spirit being brought back. That totally contradicted the WT description of death.
1 Sam. 15 - Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel. 12And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul.
13And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth. 14And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.
15And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee...
