What police have to deal with

by LoveUniHateExams 49 Replies latest social current

  • TD
    TD

    LUHE

    specifically, what did he do wrong?

    Mistakes in order:

    #1 Nazario's temporary vehicle license was visible in the lower right hand corner of his rear window even in the body cam video, which wasn't even at a good angle to see it. The police may not have seen it in the dark, but once he pulled into a brightly lit gas station, proper procedure would have been to check for and run that tag.

    #2 The imperatives shouted at Nazario were conflicting. He was simultaneously told to keep his hands visible and to get out of the vehicle which would have involved pulling a hand inside the vehicle which would very likely have gottem him shot.

    #3 Use of force by police must be justified by the level of threat. A suspect may be noncompliant for a whole spectrum of reasons ranging from impairment/confusion/fear on one end to open hostility on the other. It's one thing if a suspect is surely and combative, but it's quite another if he is holding his hands up and stating that he's afraid. Proper procedure is to make that determination and not needlessly escalate a traffic stop.

    None of this is my personal opinion. This is what use of force experts across the country have said after reviewing the recordings, which is why Gutierrez was fired.

    ----

    Was the police stop in the video you posted, in fact, illegal?

    No it was not. It's awkward to pull over your boss's boss's boss's boss and not be able to give a good reason for it, but it was not illegal.

    Both vehicles in the video (The police cruiser and the white Ford sedan) were owned by the state and running the plates on either one would have returned a null result. The officer may not have realized that at first, but once she identified herself as one of the top law enforcement officials in the state, the reason became crystal clear and the officer going off about the factory tint on her state owned vehicle is pure bullshit.

  • LoveUniHateExams
    LoveUniHateExams

    #1 Nazario's temporary vehicle license was visible in the lower right hand corner of his rear window even in the body cam video, which wasn't even at a good angle to see it. The police may not have seen it in the dark, but once he pulled into a brightly lit gas station, proper procedure would have been to check for and run that tag. [italics mine] - Hang on a sec, doesn't the law state that a displayed vehicle license must be visible at all times? The cops had every right to stop the guy if they couldn't see that license.

    #2 The imperatives shouted at Nazario were conflicting. He was simultaneously told to keep his hands visible and to get out of the vehicle which would have involved pulling a hand inside the vehicle which would very likely have gottem him shot. - yes, you're right here. The imperatives were conflicted when both cops started talking. But what about the commands given before that, when just one was talking? The army guy blatantly refused quite a few of these commands. Who escalated the situation, the cops or the army guy?

    #3 Use of force by police must be justified by the level of threat. A suspect may be noncompliant for a whole spectrum of reasons ranging from impairment/confusion/fear on one end to open hostility on the other. It's one thing if a suspect is surely and combative, but it's quite another if he is holding his hands up and stating that he's afraid - yes, use of force must be justified by level of threat. However, cops don't know why a suspect would be non-compliant. Just try to put yourself in the cops' shoes here. They want to stop a guy who isn't displaying his tags so that they're visible. Then the suspect ignores them, driving a mile and a half with the cop car following him, lights and signs going. The cops must be wondering why the suspect is ignoring them. Then one cop gets out and shouts for the army guy to put his hands outside the window, multiple times. The army guy ignores all these commands. The army guy isn't complying here.

    ^^^ the army guy ain't making life easy for himself, is he? In fact, his non-compliance escalated the situation.

    Proper procedure is to make that determination and not needlessly escalate a traffic stop. - The cop went from pointing a gun at the army guy to switching to his taser to switching to his pepper spray. <--- this is actually de-escalation. I'll say again. it was the army guy's non-compliance which escalated this particular situation.

    None of this is my personal opinion. This is what use of force experts across the country have said after reviewing the recordings, which is why Gutierrez was fired - I'd rather hear your personal opinions than respond to your appeal to authority but I'll comment anyway. The cops certainly made a few mistakes, although I personally don't think the cop should've been fired. Disciplined and retrained - yes.

    And all this happened just as the Chauvin trial is underway, with America on a knife edge, braced for rioting and looting, sorry, 'mostly peaceful protests'. Maybe that had something to do with the cop being fired?

  • TD
    TD

    LUHE

    Hang on a sec, doesn't the law state that a displayed vehicle license must be visible at all times? The cops had every right to stop the guy if they couldn't see that license.

    If you're talking about the permanent plate, yes, the law states that it must be lit. I'm not sure how it's done in other countries, but when you purchase a vehicle here in the U.S. your temporary vehicle license is a piece of paper taped to the inside of your back window which is not lit at night. There is nothing even the least bit unusual about this. We all see it here on freeways and surface streets every day and when a vehicle is not displaying a permanent plate in the normal place, that is the next logical place to look.

    It's been a long time since I lived in Virginia and I don't what the law currently is, but as a general statement from a U.S. citizen, traffic law does not go off into limbo when a police officer turns on his lights. It is up to you as a citizen to pick a safe spot for both you and the officer to stop. Here where I currently live, that means not stopping on freeways or narrow shoulders where stopping is illegal. You proceed at reduced speed with your emergency flashers on until you reach a safe spot, which can easily be a mile or two down the road.

    The series of mistakes I listed cascade into each other inasmuch as each one in turn yanks the rug of justification out from under the next one down the line. With that in mind, I'm afraid I'm not following you on #2 and #3

  • carla
  • TD
    TD

    Also, LUHE, you have asked for my opinion.

    I've expressed my concern over the adoption of military tactics by our police many times.

    On the battlefield it may be okay to shoot an enemy captive when he startles you with a sneeze, but it's not okay when that person is your neighbor.

    Here is a link to an essay by an ex CIA officer and current police officer in Georgia, who probably expresses this concern better than me.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2020/06/03/beat-cop-militarized-policing-cia/

  • truth_b_known
    truth_b_known

    TD:

    I read the article you posted. Thanks for posting it. It is well worth the read and I agree with the author.

    I am not at war with my neighbors. Every person I have arrested is a fellow American and a fellow member of my community (I live in the community I police). I have regularly run into people I have arrested at the grocery store and at restaurants. I have used force to make arrests, but when it was all said and done I treat suspects with dignity. Not because they deserve it or earned it, but because that is what I stand for. I even bought a guy lunch on the way to jail because he hadn't eaten all day and he was cooperative with me.

    I was taught in the academy that you can't control others if you can't control yourself. I was also taught that if you use force it better be to make a justifiable arrest. I was also taught that when their are multiple officers on scene 1 officer gives verbal commands so as not to confuse suspects.

    Those 2 officers lost control of themselves, confused the driver, and then used force, but failed to arrest the driver. The driver did wrong, but the response was uncalled for.

  • DATA-DOG
    DATA-DOG

    The cops are afraid to use too much force. Who can blame them?

    Have you ever tried to neutralize an attacker without seriously injuring them? You must be levels above your opponent in skill to stop them without getting hurt or seriously hurting them. In Martial Arts it’s the difference between being a Tiger or a Dragon. In the real world you need to size someone up quickly and if they are close to your level or on drugs or crazy then you may have to use lethal force and make the decision to do so quickly.

    Anyway, if Cops are afraid to be filmed throwing someone down and kneeling on them, and they hold back, then someone breaks free and grabs a gun, runs for it, or runs to their car, ect. It’s all related.

    If things get so bad that Cops quit caring to even stop crime then we are screwed. How many people can actually defend themselves? How can an Elderly person stop a hardened criminal? Things will be even worse if the idiot Marxist Left has their way with gun control.

    DD

  • pistolpete
    pistolpete

    if things get so bad that Cops quit caring to even stop crime then we are screwed.

    Actually what Cops are doing is quitting and leaving Democratic States and moving and applying in Red States with better pay and where people actually love them and support them.

    I have a cop friend who just moved his entire family into a Red State and got a huge pay raise for moving. In

    In Red States Criminals are prosecuted.🔫

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uzWhcelvWVo

  • GrreatTeacher
    GrreatTeacher

    You should always pull over in a well lit and safe place. This is what I've always been told and always have done.

    That said: About three years ago I was lit up while driving to work one morning on a miserable, heavily trafficked road with red light after red light by an unmarked vehicle.

    Yes, I was probably speeding while taking off from a redlight before slamming on my breaks for the next one. Traffic moves fast, people weave in and out. It's a total shitshow.

    I immediately slowed down, put on my signal and moved over 2 lanes of traffic. There was an additional lane that was the turn off to the local community college so I didn't want to stop there. Remember it's early morning and college students are pouring in. Busy, busy, busy. I wanted to pull into the college parking lot and not block traffic.

    But, nope, the cop was having none of it. He put on the sirens, so I stopped. In the busiest, most dangerous place possible. But, that's what he wanted.

    I won't lie. I've been pulled over before. I know the drill. Turn off the vehicle. Put your hands on the steering wheel and wait for the cop to come to you. He gets out of his car and walks up to my vehicle now taking up another lane that students are trying to use to get to school.

    He asks me if I knew how fast I was going, blah, blah, blah and can he see my license, registration and proof of insurance. I tell him I need to reach into the glove compartment and he says okay. I have registration and proof of insurance.

    My driver's license is in my purse which is in my teaching bag which is directly behind my seat and it is heavy so I can't reach it from my seat. He says to try. I say okay and fumble with the bag, but can't get it. I tell him that I have to get out and open the back door and I look him in the eye and ask him if it's safe to do so. I really don't believe it is.

    Suddenly, he's on the back foot. He looks around at the mess of cars zooming around and says, "Yeah, I think so. Go ahead."

    !!!You think so?!!! (I didn't say this out loud!)

    So, I get out, and he's kind of blocking the traffic from hitting me and I get the feeling that he suddenly realizes that this is actually very dangerous. Cars are flying around, we're just past a corner and it feels dangerous. How easy would it be for someone to fly around the corner and smash into me and him. And they almost do. I'm pissed off because I don't really have a choice but to follow his directions and I'm fearing for my safety (and his)! I grab the bag, dig through books and papers, dig out my purse and go sit back in the driver's seat. I pull out my license, give it to him, he takes my stuff and disappears into his vehicle.

    I frantically call the school where I work, tell them I'd been pulled over and told them that I might be late for my 8:30 parent conference. Of all the days!

    The cop comes back with a written warning and told me to drive more safely since the traffic is really bad in the morning on this road. But he seemed a little less aggressive. In fact, almost chastened. Nearly apologetic.

    I told him it was bad in the afternoon too, in fact it was never good and now I was really late for a parent conference. Then I told him thank you for being careful with my safety. And that was that.

    He probably thought I was a dumb college student. Cops around here will pull kids over just to make a point. And I was driving a Subaru WRX and I was speeding and changing lanes. As everyone does because when the lane you're in comes to a sudden stop, you need to change lanes real quick. Ten miles of that shit twice a day.

    He realized I wasn't a college student and everything checked out so he let me go. Maybe he also thought about how dangerous the whole thing was and if he had let me keep going to the college parking lot he wouldn't have put either of us in danger.

  • truth_b_known
    truth_b_known

    In the U.S., when the lights go on behind you, you and everyone in your vehicle is under arrest. You don't determine the best or safest place to stop. The officer initiating the traffic stop determines that.

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