Did Jesus really die on a cross? (page 2)

steve2

I don't much care what he died on - as long as it wasn't a Sunday.

Finkelstein

Yes the WTS pressed to show that Jesus was crucified on a single stake and not on a two piece crossed stake mostly out refutation against main stream Christendom.

There has been archaeological evidence found that shows that a crossed stake was used in ancient Roman excavations.

Another screw up by the leaders of the WTS.

The only thing the WTS may have revealed that worshiping graven images such as the cross or the image of Jesus Christ was admonished as stated in the bible.

This was another thing they accused Christendom of doing

Heartsafire

Yes, that scripture about the print of the nails in his hands is a good one.

Here's a scripture that shows the sign Pilate posted was above his head (it doesn't say above his hands--although I guess that is possible). Matthew 27: 37 They also posted above his head the charge against him, in writing: “This is Jesus the King of the Jews.”

Crucifixion was commonly used at the time, and Jesus prophecied how Peter would also die with his hands outstretched at John 21:18 Most truly I say to you, when you were younger, you used to clothe yourself and walk about where you wanted. But when you grow old, you will stretch out your hands and another man will clothe you and carry you where you do not wish.” 19 He said this to indicate by what sort of death he would glorify God. After he said this, he said to him: “Continue following me.”

Lieu

John 21:18 only says Peter will be a prisoner when he dies. He won't be a free man.

Anyhow, I don't think it matters by which design of wood he died nailed to. It's too irrelevant to become the focus of his death. Kinda like people searching for a cup. (Holy Grail. Where does it say it's even his cup? Likely one of the dishes of the guy who's house they ate in.) No one is looking for the forks and knives they ate with or the plate the loaf was on.

Witness 007

Does "staturos" mean poll or stake not a cross...look at me defending the "truth" yee ha!

joe134cd

Even when I was an uber dub this is something that I always had trouble getting my head around after I was challenged about this at a door and not been able to find any concrete answers to in the publications. I said I would return to this house holder but I never did. I wished I had now as he probably could of saved me years of wasted life. Btw it also says he carried the cross on his back. Try doing that with a stake lol.

Heartsafire

Lieu,

...and John 21:19? Edited to say: It is true that Peter died while a prisoner, however, early Christians claimed he was executed on an upside down cross. If this is the case, it is probable that Jesus's prediction of dying with his hands "outstretched" was more than just a description of shackles. All in all, who really knows? Although, it doesn't prove my point wrong that crucifixion was commonly used by Romans at the time.

Finkelstein

Terminology used by ancient writers

Apart from meaning a stake, the word stauros was also used by writers of the early Christian period to refer to a construction with transom.

Using the Greek word σταυρός in its verbal form, the Jewish historian Josephus too, writing of the siege of Jerusalem in AD 70, recounted that the Jews caught outside the city walls "were first whipped, and then tormented with all sorts of tortures, before they died, and were then crucified before the wall of the city … the soldiers, out of the wrath and hatred they bore the Jews, nailed those they caught, one after one way, and another after another, to the crosses, by way of jest."[50]

Dionysius of Halicarnassus, who lived at the time of the birth of Jesus, described how those condemned to crucifixion were led to the place of execution:

"A Roman citizen of no obscure station, having ordered one of his slaves to be put to death, delivered him to his fellow-slaves to be led away, and in order that his punishment might be witnessed by all, directed them to drag him through the Forum and every other conspicuous part of the city as they whipped him, and that he should go ahead of the procession which the Romans were at that time conducting in honour of the god. The men ordered to lead the slave to his punishment, having stretched out both his arms and fastened them to a piece of wood which extended across his breast and shoulders as far as his wrists, followed him, tearing his naked body with whips."[51] Roman Antiquities, VII, 69:1-2

Dionysius here uses the Greek word xylon (ξύλον) for the horizontal crossbeam (the "patibulum") used in Roman crucifixions; he describes how the hands of the condemned man were tied to it (χεῖρας ἀποτείναντες ἀμφοτέρας [...] προσδήσαντες) for him to be whipped while being led to the place of execution.[52]

The mid-2nd-century diviner Artemidorus spoke of crucifixion as something that occurred on a cross that had breadth as well as height: "Since he is a criminal, he will be crucified in his height and in the extension of his hands" (Oneirocritica 1:76).[53]

Lucian of Samosata (121-180) describes the crucifixion of the mythical Prometheus by nailing him to a precipice on the Caucasus "with his hands outstretched (ἐκπετασθεὶς τὼ χεῖρε) from crag to crag."[54]

The Rebel

Who cares?

And does it really matter?

The Rebel.

Clambake

I have heard this debate before and the biggest factor against the torture stake argument is Jesus and the criminals would have died of suffocation in about 20 minutes on the torture stake. The whole idea of extending the arms on the cross was to prolong the suffering.

Mind you, JWs to me are more about disproving the bible than actually teaching it.

Did Jesus really die on a cross?

Terminology used by ancient writers

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