Oops, I did it again! Flag placed in the KH: Chile 2016

by ILoveTTATT2 43 Replies latest jw friends

  • stuckinarut2

    Well said smiddy!

  • sir82

    So what is the problem? The authorities demand a flag on the National Day, and a flag they get. So what?

    Of course!

    And when the authorities demand that JWs serve in the military, that's what they get!

    Oops, wait a minute, no. The JW youth is sent to prison for 5 years. Either that or join the military & get disfellowshipped.

    Oh well, at least the WTS doesn't have to pay a fine! Thank God the money is safe!

    "Non-neutral activity" is theoretically a big no-no for JWs.

    Funny how if the penalty for "non-neutral activity" is "get fined", well, hey, it's a conscience matter! But if the penalty for "non-neutral activity" is "an individual JW loses 5 years of his life in prison", it's "oh, so sad! Well, keep warm & well fed in prison brother, we'll pray for you when we bother to think of it."

  • blondie

    Great point, sir82....the WTS worships money....

  • pale.emperor

    Hang on, hang on... so that brother in the convention video who refused to play the Soviet national anthem on his violin COULD have all along? And he went to prison for not doing it?


  • darkspilver

    TBH I think the comparision with Malawi, somewhat muddies the water. Best to keep it as siple as possible

    I believe the clearest comparision, was what I highlighted two years ago regarding the situation in Austria in April 1938


    I understand that for both Chile and Austria, it is /was "caesar's law" that a flag was to be displayed (with evidently no other acts of devotion required?)

    Of course WT precedes the Austrian example in the year book with a very loaded comment - but surely that is also the intent in Chile - after all it is 'National Day'.

    I believe the 'fine' for not displaying that flag in Chile is affordable to pay, and I would be perfectly happy with congregation donations/funds being using to pay it - if indeed they do get fined as it seems it's a bit ad hoc.

    Sister Altenbuchner in Austria decided not to display a flag - "for reasons of conscience."

    I suspect JWs reading that would agree, and say, of course we wouldn't display the flag, but...

    But, the year book makes no play regarding scriptural principles etc etc in the experience - purely that she decided the way she did because of her own personal "reasons of conscience."

    Others may have decided it was "caesar's law" and therefore compiled with the law - much like some congregations in Chile?

    Link to scans

  • darkspilver

    Hey pale.emperor!

    Hang on, hang on... so that brother in the convention video who refused to play the Soviet national anthem on his violin COULD have all along? And he went to prison for not doing it?

    I suppose, if it wasn't part of a nationalistic ceremony, then yes - it was his personal conscience decision, but...

    But, he might also have also reasoned that when he played it, the uniformed officiers present would have saluted and that - in the brothers eyes - would have made it into a nationalistic ceremony which the brother wanted no part of.

    Also, notice how he didn't say, "I don't know how to play it" (and a badly played national anthem might be viewed as being disrespectful in itself) - he might have had to learn to to play it - technically as it were - for a music exam.

  • John Free
    John Free

    Watchtower is breaking its own rules on this matter in order to save money. In their own literature flags are referred to as 'objects of veneration'. Objects of veneration are idols. Also in their own literature it isn't simply the veneration of idols that is condemned but the very possession of an idol that is condemned. The following is a quote from g 8/08 pp20-21

    Religious icons and idols are representations, or symbols, of anything that serves as an object of devotion or veneration. They include crosses, statues, pictures, or any other likeness of things in heaven or on the earth.* Flags can also be objects of veneration.

    The use of such objects in worship goes back thousands of years. Hence, in 1513 B.C.E., when giving the fledgling nation of Israel the Ten Commandments, God clearly stated his view of religious images. He said: “You must not make for yourself a carved image or a form like anything that is in the heavens above or that is on the earth underneath or that is in the waters under the earth. You must not bow down to them nor be induced to serve them, because I Jehovah your God am a God exacting exclusive devotion.”—Exodus 20:4, 5.

    Note God’s twofold prohibition: First, his people were not to make images for worship, and second, they were not to “bow down to them” or serve them.

  • darkspilver

    OK, found what I was after regarding playing National Anthems - it's in the confidential Correspondence Guildlines which they use if you write into Bethel


    School and Jehovah's Witnesses (1983), page 29, paragraph 2

    Class Instruction - Music and Art Instruction

    Even during practice sessions, Witness students would not share in playing national anthems or songs connected with religious or national holidays.

    Branch Correspondence Guildlines, page 57, paragraph 4

    Flag Salute and Anthems

    If a person in a band or an orchestra participated in playing a national anthem in a patriotic ceremony, he would thus be expressing total agreement and making an essential contribution to the patriotic act. A Christian could not do this and remain in good standing in the congregation. In contrast, if music instruction in school required a student to show that he could play a certain anthem, not as part of a ceremony, but merely as a demonstration of musical skill to the instructor, this would be a matter for personal decision.

    Link to scans

  • ILoveTTATT2

    Wait, what? the last scan... that's from the Branch correspondence guidelines? Where can I get a copy of that document?

  • wifibandit

    Gracias! Well done!

    Here you go:

    2011 cg-E Correspondence Guidelines

    For those who didn't know, Peru does this too.


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