by Skeptically Yours 59 Replies latest jw friends
It's been my experience that those from Spanish or Mediteranean backgrounds are more liberal than Caucasian JWs.
I'm glad that you've found a group to party with, because the others would be classing you as "unspiritual" or "worldly".
But as Blondie says, the fun will only last as long as no one tells the elders. As soon as someone does, you'll have some explaining to do!!!!
How can a person who is gay, feel whole and worthwhile amoung those who so openly oppose them?
Little Witch, I wish I had the answer to that one. I can only speak from personal experience. I was proselytized as a JW in 1974 at the age of 17. I knew already that I was gay, and had a boyfriend when I was studying with the JWs. The elder I studied with convinced me that Armageddon was coming in 1975. He told me (his words) "All you have to do is stop being gay for a few months, get baptized, and once you've survived Armageddon, your sexuality won't matter any more." I believed him, broke off my relationship with my boyfriend, and became a baptized JW. Although I never lost sight of the fact that I was gay, I became celibate and awaited the arrival of the Great Tribulation. Eventually, I was faced with a crisis of conscience (to coin a phrase), and decided that it was more important to stop living the life of a hypocrite, and allowed myself to be expelled from the JWs 23 years ago.
There are literally thousands of gay JWs out there, and many more who have already left. I have over 750 email addresses on my private correspondence list alone! I personally think that many of these so called "BHFs" will eventually realize that it is unrealistic to belong to an organization which blatantly condemns them, and hopefully turn to A Common Bond for support. (http://www.gayxjw.org/)
Meanwhile, these gay individuals have been taught to patiently await Armageddon. They have also been taught that "apostates" are evil - a ploy to keep them from contacting those of us who have left and are willing to extend the hand of support to help them make their exit.
I can only hope that one day they will find their way.
Welcome SY, and have fun playing while it lasts.
sure.
Hi y?all!!!
Here I am again to touch up on your comments and clarify some issues so that the case may be closed? for now.
Actually, only the JWs that want to pretend to be holier than ?thou?, or the new ones that come in full force with a lot of zeal are the ones that sort of dislike our bunch, but it?s just a few of them so they?ll just have to get over it, and they certainly will; in due time everyone does get over the crazy expectancy of Armageddon and find some kind of balance within the organization.
As for some of us experiencing crisis of conscience and running to the elders, won?t happen because we?re not necessarily committing sins for which to be reproached; this large group (and believe me it?s large! Plus there are already elders among us) of us just enjoys dancing and doing a bit more drinking and laughing than our fellow members. We just happen to be not as solemn as some in there.
Also, it?s so many of us in the couple of congregations in the area that I just don?t foresee a problem. We have all types too, it?s an awesome mix: Ex-circuit overseers, elders, ex-elders, ministerial servants, ex-ministerial servants, pioneers, ex-pioneers, and some of course plain regular publishers; Cubans, Puerto Ricans, Jamaicans, Dominicans, Mexicans; a couple are business owners, professionals, regular employees, darn there are even a couple of public Government officials in our group; rich, well-to-do, comfortable, and poor ones too; ALL with one thing in common: ?Let?s shake out booty, have a few drinks and laughs ?til whatever comes?.
A typical day: Yesterday, most of us were too tired and some physically hurting from the dancing and partying we did on Saturday evening to go out on service Sunday morning; oh well, maybe next Sunday some of us will go. Then again, maybe not because some of us are going sailing to some island close by, and some are said to be going to a club where a band we like will be playing next Saturday; so, yeah, maybe next Sunday people will just have to miss having us knock on their door. In the meantime, we dressed nicely and attended our afternoon meeting, socialized mostly among ourselves, but always friendly towards the new ones and the zealous-more solemn ones. Gave our comments properly at the Watchtower study, and after the meeting we all knew where the gathering was. Did I tell you we have some mean cooks among us?! So the feast was at someone?s place; the children did their running around, some watched movies, everyone pigged out then we did some tequila shots, a few beers, nice music, lots of laughs and some up-to-date everyday stories, and by 8:30 we all headed home because there?s work to be done come Monday.
Now in a month or so there?s this cruise that many of us are taking, and it happens to fall on the same weekend as our Circuit Assembly. Oh well, we?ll just have to attend (maybe) another assembly some place else. That?s just the way we operate.
The Almighty God made this life to be enjoyed and we?re enjoying it as best we can! And if in the end he doesn?t approve our ways, well, we wholeheartedly believe the Watchtower?s theory of what happens when we die? I guess we?ll just have to do some catching up in our sleep then. HA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I?ll keep posting our group?s perspective while inside from time to time.
Fascinating! party on!
I am far from a naive individual, but I find this claim of gays JWs mixing together and then parcticing their sexuallity openly and then proceed to the Kingdom Hall a little far fetcheted. To say that this goes on regularly and noone has blown the whistle (pardon the metiphor) I find so impossible to believe. Newbie, you claim that there are x CO., elders x elders, ms. x ms. Please does this sound right or a little off the edge. I mean speaking for myself I no longer am a Witness, however if at the time I was practising the way of the Organizational way and I knew of something like this happening I would be horrified. But then on the other hand, Newbie, I am asking you in all sincereity are you and the others posting here telling the truth. ? I mean you have nothing to lose now, so just the plain truthful answer will do.
Sincerely
Orangefatcat.
OOPS
Orangefatcat
WOW! I had heard of some homosexuals in Bethel, but nothing else.
Well, nothing is impossible these days. Just like I'm a part of this large partying group inside, I guess other groups may exist too.
I am far from a naive individual, but I find this claim of gays JWs mixing together and then parcticing their sexuallity openly and then proceed to the Kingdom Hall a little far fetcheted. To say that this goes on regularly and noone has blown the whistle (pardon the metiphor) I find so impossible to believe.
Orangefatcat, it is relatively common knowledge that at least one of the Governing Body (possibly two) was gay. Here is an interesting story which was posted on the old H2O board a long time ago:
Tales of the City - A Little Bethel History from Toronto
(as told by a member of the Toronto Support Group)
At one time I thought that perhaps I was the only gay Jehovah's Witness in Canada, perhaps the world. This was not unusual, as most gay/lesbian Jehovah's Witnesses feel the same way. There is a conspiracy of silence on the subject, since these things were "not to be even mentioned" by a good Christian.
Percy Chapman and his companion Leo Greenlees were sent by Rutherford from London Bethel in 1936 to replace the rebel Canadian Branch Overseer, Walter Salter, who had started up his own group over the "elected elders" debacle. Percy was a mesmerizing public speaker of the old school (no voice amplification required) and with his Lancashire lilt of voice reminded me of Winston Churchill, flapping jowls and all. I can still remember the reverberating vibrato of his voice warning of the "vile depths of the abominations" and since I knew that homosexuality was "an abomination unto the lord" wondered if that was what he was referring to. It was not until later that I began to suspect the administration at Bethel was mainly gay.
I remember the shock at a district assembly in 1959 at Halifax, Nova Scotia where Percy Chapman, then the branch overseer of Canada was to give the main talk. Suddenly who should appear to replace him, but Brother Knorr, the President from New York. Percy Chapman just disappeared from sight. Later we found out that Brother Knorr had removed all responsibilities from Percy but allowed him to remain at Bethel in Toronto as a janitor. The next shock was that Percy Chapman was forced to be married. Percy, following the Rutherford line, was totally anti- marriage and he made sure that none of the "Bethel boys" even contemplated the subject with very strict rules and early curfews. The only way a bethel boy could see another sister would be to go on a Bible study with her. My parents started studying in 1945 with a beautiful young pioneer sister named Joyce Randall and every week there would be a new Bethel boy accompanying her. She later was sent to Gilead and posted in Peru, totally isolated, only to be seduced by a latin lover. Of course she was disfellowshipped and sent home in disgrace. But my family did get to know a lot of Bethel boys. They were all young and handsome, hand-picked by Percy Chapman; there was even an elite group known as "Percy's boys" who would accompany him to expensive restaurants and bars and receive other favours. At the time, Bethel was on Irwin Avenue, now (although replaced by a condominium) in the centre of the gay district of Toronto. There was even a Kingdom Hall above "the Parkside", one of Toronto's few gay bars in the fifties and sixties.
Poor Leo Greenlees, Percy's close companion for three decades even when at London Bethel, had to find himself a new room-mate. Leo was a cheerful, likable fellow, with his thick Scottish brogue and also an electrifying public speaker. He was very open about his homosexuality to those few good-looking young brothers like those he would meet at one of the summer resorts in Haliburton run by Jehovah's Witnesses (later bequeathed to the Watchtower Society). I got to know Leo a little better when he was assigned to be congregation overseer at the Kingdom Hall I attended as a teenager during the early sixties in Richmond Hill, just north of Toronto. He would bring along another bethel boy, Lorne Bridle, who was very good looking and charming. After a failed marriage to a young pioneer sister, he eventually committed suicide. I often wondered what tortured state of mind led him to that - but so often the fate of closeted gays in the Watchtower society!
But Leo was soon to be promoted to Brooklyn Bethel, where he became the Treasurer of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society and one of the elite governing body. He managed to escape the witch-hunt at Brooklyn Bethel in the early seventies when dozens of Bethel boys were disfellowshipped after learning of their midnight trysts in the sauna in Brooklyn bethel. There was for a short period in the late sixties and early seventies a marked liberalization of attitudes among the governing body. But this suddenly ended, culminating with a power struggle and the disfellowshipping of Raymond Franz, a member of the governing body who was a free-thinker and had written the "Truth" book and chaired the writing of the almost scholarly "Aid to Bible Understanding". Both books, interestingly have joined the list of publications that you would think never existed according to the Watchtower society, although the "Truth" book had the largest printing, next to the Bible, of any book in the world.
It as not until a few years ago that I learned Leo Greenlees had been found out and was removed from the Governing Body for being gay. The last I heard as that he was sent to San Diego where he died not too long ago. As far as I know he was never disfellowshipped, nor can I corroborate any real seductions. Another member of the GB, Chitty who was also removed from Brooklyn Bethel for the same reason and sent away to London, England, I understand.
While the gay active JWs who call themselves BHFs admit their orientation, they seem to be encouraging celibacy amongst themselves. However, if you go to their website and read the guest book (which is in reality their message board), it doesn't take much imagination to read between the lines in their posts. They have, however, taken an important first step. They recognize and freely admit their sexuality. Whether they choose to act upon it is their choice. Some have, some haven't. The Society has frightened them into remaining in the Organization. They are leary of any contact whatsoever with we "apostates", because they are taught that we are "evil". I can't condemn them for trying to establish a clandestine network of support. Looking back on my own life as a JW in hindsight, if they had existed 25 years ago, I might have joined them, too!
