After Jesus fasted for 40 days, he was tempted by a man (not a fallen angel). (page 4)

quincemyles

There is no devil or Satan in the pre-exile OT.
He was borrowed from the Zoroastrian religion in Babylon.

I agree. No casting out of Demons either in the pre-exile OT. After interacting with Babylonians, Persians, Greeks and Romans, then you get demons of blindness, demons of muteness, demons of epilepsy, demons of schizophrenia being cast out. They borrowed the Devil and demons concepts from their godless neighbors.

So why are you using an obscure reference in Rev to interpret the letter of James?

From the time Jesus began his ministry to the destruction of the temple in 70 A.D, the devil was a human system, a human being or an idea standing in opposition to Christ's work. Any one of those would fit the devil in James. Why? James wrote to Jews who were scattered about, fleeing intense persecution. He urged them to endure. Who were the persecutors or opposers (Satans)? It was apostate Jews and Romans. I would point to the devil in James 4 as being a human, human system or sin on the basis of history without alluding to revelation 2:9,10; 3:9,10. Because the OT does not present the devil as a fallen spirit, he would not be the first to come to mind when i read devil in James. It is evident that first century Christians believed in a fallen archenemy which is why we find lots of Devils and demons in the NT. That belief was borrowed from neighbors and was not based on facts.

quincemyles

It's very unlikely that Caiaphas, who was appointed by Valerius Gratus was a Pharisee. The Sadducess, who were pragmatists, were far more successful under Roman rule.

Will look into that. Thanks.

smiddy

Doesn`t the book of Job allude to a fallen Angel a spirit creature to tempt humans against God ?

Just asking

smiddy

cofty

They borrowed the Devil and demons concepts from their godless neighbors.

So why are you arguing against every subsequent reference to Satan in the NT?

I'm confused what your point is.

Saename

This is actually the first time I hear someone claim that Jesus was tempted not by Satan but by a man—a Pharisee. I've never heard that before. Anyway, according to the Christian tradition, it was Satan. I don't see a valid reason to dispute that.

never a jw

Doesn`t the book of Job allude to a fallen Angel?

No, I don't believe so. The so called fallen angel is a concept that was first hinted in the 1 Chronicles 21:1 (compare to 2 Samuel 24:1 where there is no Satan whatsoever). Any other time the word satan appears in the OT is a concept, someone who opposes or blocks or argues against, an accuser, an adversary, which is precisely the role of Satan in the book of Job. He is just someone who is having a different position from God. The word later evolved into a proper name with a capital "S", Satan. This is an idea that definitely is post Babylonian exile. Quite likely developed during the Persian or Greek periods

jhine

I have just read this and , like Cofty , am confused as to what point you are making .

Jan

never a jw

They borrowed the Devil and demons concepts from their godless neighbors.

That's a new one. Devil and demons, but no God. I always thought that God came first, then the Devil

quincemyles

Smiddy.

Doesn`t the book of Job allude to a fallen Angel a spirit creature to tempt humans against God ?

What the book of Job says.

1) The accuser (Satan) walked in the land of Uz. Job 1:1,7.

2) Job was a prominent figure in the land, a wealthy sheikh. Job 1:3.

3) The accusing person attended some kind of court sessions in which matters concerning others were presented before a representative of God. Job 1:6. Exodus 18:19.

4) What befell Job was done by God himself, rather than the one who brought the accusations against Job. Job 1:11, 21; 2:5; 42:10.

What the book of Job does not say.

1) That the sons of God there were angels.

2) That the gatherings of the Sons of God before YHWH were in Heaven. The accuser was walking, roaming in the land of Uz. He would leave that land to possibly another land where the religious council was held and before whom he presented his cases against Job.

3) That the accuser is the one who caused the calamities that befell God. All the accuser did was request through God's representative that calamity falls on Job.

4) That a fallen angel was rebuked a the close of Job's tribulation. Only humans were rebuked, consolidating the idea that it was all a human against human affair before God. Job 42:7-9.

Saename

1) The accuser (Satan) walked in the land of Uz. Job 1:1,7.

Hell no. Job 1.1–7 talks about Job. Job was in the land of Uz. Then, the book of Job 1.8 explicitly says that "the sons of God came to present themselves before [Yahweh], and [the adversary] also came among them." In this context, the adversary was clearly an angel because he presented himself before Yahweh.

3) The accusing person attended some kind of court sessions in which matters concerning others were presented before a representative of God. Job 1:6. Exodus 18:19.

The accusing person was directly presented before God, not before a representative of God. Therefore, this court was most likely in heaven.

4) What befell Job was done by God himself, rather than the one who brought the accusations against Job. Job 1:11, 21; 2:5; 42:10.

You're misrepresenting the situation. In verse 11 the adversary does say to Yahweh to stretch out his hand. However, if you read on to verse 12, Yahweh then says to the adversary that it is in the power of this very adversary to harm Job. Therefore, it was the adversary who harmed Job.

Because the adversary presented himself directly before God, it was most likely an angel.

You need to do more accurate studies of ancient Judaism. It's clear that you're just some crackpot who has no idea what s/he's talking about.

After Jesus fasted for 40 days, he was tempted by a man (not a fallen angel).

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