HELP!!! HELP!!!! HELP!!!!!!

by proudassmonkey 56 Replies latest jw friends

  • sunshineToo
    sunshineToo

    {{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{Melissa}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

    I am so sorry for your situation. I've been there. We, my mom and I, had some heated arguments. I just ignored. A few days later she would bring some fruits or food for me. I just pretended nothing was happened. I think mom apreciated that.

    Your parents (at least for now ) and all jws are not capable to show real love because they are brain washed not to. You have to show them the true love, Melissa. It's not going to be easy because it sounds like some of your other siblings are jws as well. Stay close to your the other sibling who is not a jw and to other friends and family who are not jws. You'll be surprised how much support you can get from them. The jws says that the worldly people are the worst sort, but they, the worldly ones, are the ones who can give you unconditional love.

    Keep your life style morally clean if you can. If other people can see you as an examplary one and see your parents shunning you, they are going to wonder and your parents might be pressured not to shun you.

    PM me if you'd like.

    sunshineToo

  • Ravyn
    Ravyn

    here is my Dear Dad letter I copied out of my old deconversion post---I know it is sepcifically mine, but maybe you can get some of the points out of it that apply to you:

    Dear Dad,

    The religion that I grew up with, with you is not the religion promoted by the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society-and it never was. My whole life with you, you taught me 'truths' that WTBS did not hold, telling me not to share them with others at the Hall because not everyone was 'ready' for the 'truth'. The very idea that you are of the anointed is against their dogma. I spent 15 years as a pioneer, put in more hours in field service than anyone else in my family, and I can tell you that what WTBS teaches and believes is not what you taught me to believe. The reason I left was because my conscience could no longer tolerate the corruption and abuse of that group. You are living in a fantasy world if you think the way you believe and the way you live(I am speaking of not actively being involved in the field service--not anything personal)are acceptable to them!

    I believe in what you taught me about God. I have not left the Truth. At this point in my life I do not even consider myself Christian.

    Now you may feel that you spent more time deeply involved in the inner workings as an elder, but that was a long time ago. Things have changed since then, and you are no longer in the loop. And if you remember correctly you were always on the edge anyway--not exactly a team player. I started seeing some dangerous patterns in 1994 with WTBS. Then in 1996-7 I was personally asked by A WTBS attorney to lie in court to cover up a scandal at Bethel. I can give you as many details as you wish to know including names and dates---but I never thought you cared to know about it. I spent 23 years involved in WTBS with you, and another 11 involved with them without you. It was not my years with you that decided my leaving. Did you know that in 1985 they changed the Baptism questions? I didn't until I did some research. When I got baptized I made a vow to Jehovah, Jesus, and to follow the leadings of Holy Spirit. In 1985 they changed that to following the instructions of WTBS. I did not make a vow to an organization. I made a vow to God, His Son and the Holy Spirit's leadings IN MY LIFE.

    If there was one single thing that took me out, it was a careful study(with no ulterior motive--as it was something I just came upon accidentally) of Revelation 7: 9 and 11 in the WTBS' own Kingdom Interlinear. Briefly, in verse 9 it is talking about the Great Crowd, and in verse 11 it is talking about the angels. Now unless the angels are going to be on the Earth, the Great Crowd is in Heaven. The Greek word that identifies where these two groups are is exactly the same. There is not degrees of 'before the throne' indicated here, nor does the Greek word used support that stretch of a theory(for this I spoke with a professor of ancient languages at Harvard). There are other Greek words that could have been used to differentiate a different place, but that is not how the inspired writer wrote it. It says that the angels, in the circle of throne-Heaven, will worship in the same place as the Great Crowd-who came OUT of the Earth--and that place is before the throne. This is not talking about the 144,000. Verse 14 reiterates the place where the Great Crowd are, using the phrase again-and adds the phrase 'in the divine habitation of him'---so now WTBS would have us believe that not only do the angels come down to the Earth to worship but that God himself lives here? I know they explain it that his tent will spread over the Earth---but that is not what the SCRIPTURE says. The scripture says that the Great Crowd will join him in his tent. No where does it indicate that this tent will be on Earth. No where. And the logic that they use to say that his tent will be extended to the Earth is flawed logic, making scripture fit WTBS' own dogma. THAT is criminal. To manipulate the Word of God in order to cover your own butts! It sickens me.

    So I fell in with no 'apostates' or read no 'forbidden' books. It was the WTBS' own literature that took me out. I did not forsake the Truth. The Truth set me free. And I decided this on December 17, 1995. A year and a half before I ever met Lee. He had nothing to do with it.

    Now as far as my Church wedding which is what I am assuming stimulated this email from you, can you blame me? I planned my wedding since I was 6 years old. WTBS took away my youth, my prospects for marriage and a family ((I had a tubal ligation done in 1994 on the 'strong' advice of an elder(I was told if I got married and had a baby I would be removed as a pioneer) who was trying to match me up with a brother who did not want children--of course after the surgery the brother moved away never to be heard of again!)) Lee and I had a beautiful pagan wedding on a beach at midnight with a few close friends, but it was not how either of us ever pictured a wedding. We wanted photographs and cake and all the stuff everyone else gets. It was a first wedding for both of us. So I did what I had to do and we had our wedding. It was lovely, but bitter sweet, knowing that it was 20 years too late and none of my family cared enough to be there. So chalk up yet another one for WTBS.

    If you were not guilty of the so-called 'sin' you were disfellowshipped for, as you explained to me that Jehovah can judge the extenuating circumstamces, then blame the WTBS for causing this rift in our relationship too. I was not allowed to talk to you for how long? 8 years or more? On the penalty of my being removed as a pioneer--that is what I was repeatedly told. Do you know how it ripped me up to hear your voice when you called to tell me about Jeremy's suicide and not be able to even give you a hug? Not get to know Ruth or Matthew? And I wrote the WTBS asking advice on how to deal with family relationships under the circumstances, I pleaded with them, and was flat out told that I could not have anything to do with you period. YOU were considered apostate by every congregation I attended. The letters I got back from WTBS forbid me to even PRAY for you! But you never knew that because when you did come back I did not want to hurt your feelings or undermine your supposedly weak faith(their words not mine). So Dad you just don't know what I put up with from them in those 11 years. I have tried to put it behind me. But now I have a hard time finding any solace in faith. The mention of the name Jehovah is painful to me. And I have studied and studied scripture and theology and I just can't get past the idea that maybe the whole Christian thing was just a way to enslave people from the beginning.

    Whatever Russell had, Rutherford lost. Same with the Mormons, Joseph Smith had a rare spirituality, but Brigham Young turned it into a business enterprise. The first Christian Church, whether anyone likes it or not was called Catholic. I think it had something unique until it became the political pawn of Constantine, and then with the final chapters of the Roman Empire, Christianity went into hiding with the fanatics and the extremists. I have read many Gnostic texts and I find none of them in contradiction of the Bible Canons, but in great contradiction of Church teaching. The thing is, I don't identify with the Bible as a holy book or the God of the Bible as my God. I am not Jewish. I don't want to be Jewish. It is not my culture or inheritance. I don't belong. I think maybe you can empathize with the feeling of not belonging...

    Religion is such a small limited piece of spirituality for humans. The world is such a bigger place than cults would have you believe. The Universe belongs to everyone. Truth is relative here on Earth. And the idea that there is only one secret way and only one elite group of people practicing it, is American Protestant Fundamentalism at its most dangerous. It is trap.

    Sincerely,

    Ravyn

  • seven006
    seven006

    Malisa,

    Intelligence and real knowledge are the only tools a person has to combat a control and brainwashed mind. If you can try and break down your parents letter and you might see what you can say to give them something to think about.

    They said;
    <<<You mighYou are the first to say you can't be a hypocrite to your self. Neither can wet >>

    You might say you do not see them as hypocrites by choice but only going back and forth in their beliefs according to the constant changes from the watchtower society. You see them being forced to make changes in minds according to the changing in the prophecies and prediction of the men running the organization back in New York. Bring out the predictions about 1975 and after the year passed the society blaming it's members for reading too much into what they said.

    You can then bring out how one of the main teachings of the Watchtower organization was the generation that were old enough to observe the first world war in 1914 would not pass away before Armageddon came and since they are all just about gone the society all of a sudden came up with new light and once again changed a long standing and major doctrine to fit the unfulfilled prophecies.

    You can tell them exactly what you told us in that you do not want to come off like an apostate. But, you can no longer blindly accept major prophecy changes as new light but instead using logic and intelligence to see that the society uses prophecies like those to keep their people afraid and in line but when the prophecy is shown to be false by the simple reason of the time and events that prove them wrong. You do not want to continue to tell people about new prophecies that will also not come true. To you, that will make you a hypocrite and a liar.

    <<You know very well that your mother and I love you dearly >>

    You may ask your dad to define what he feels the meaning of "love" is. Ask him to look up what the bible defines as love and ask him if that definition includes the words "unless the watchtower society adds amendments to keep those who do not agree with them asking questions"?

    <<We want to tell you that it’s a hard thing to remind you of how as Jehovah’s servants we follow the scriptural admonition to not be eating with one who has turned their back on the teachings we get from the bible. >>

    Tell your dad that you will gladly come back to the religion if he can show you the scripture that has the word "disfellowshipped" in it. When he tells you that it doesn't exist ask him about the scripture that says to not add anything to what has been written. Then ask him if that isn't what the watchtower society has done to fit their needs and keep those who dare to question them away from those who blindly accept.

    <<There is no doubt in our minds of how we need to be >>

    Ask your dad to read what he just said. He said that this is how they "need" to be? Then ask him if this is how he truly feels in his heart as how they "want" to be? Tell him that "needing" to be is not the same as "wanting". Ask him if in his heart and as a man and as your father if this "need" goes against his "want". Ask him if he has ever wrestled with what his heart an intelligent mind told him he truly "felt" in relation to what the society told him he "needed" to believe.

    <<Though there is great sorrow in our hearts with the path you chose. >>

    Tell your dad that this is not the path you chose but rather the path "they" chose. You have no rules telling you not to eat or associate with your parents that you love. The true meaning of "love' would not do that. It is the watchtower society telling them they cannot eat or associate with you, their daughter who loves them. Tell them that you have come to understand in your mind and heart that the watchtower society is not your parent, it is an incorporated religion that started a little over a hundred years ago and have changed their teachings several times in that time to keep their members selling their books and magazines. The religion has such a control over their members minds that they have the power to rip familles apart and redefine the true meaning of love and convince their followers that if they do not do as they say, they will die. That threat of death is right around the corner and has been frozen there since the religion started.

    <<We feel out of all our children (except for Sara) you are the most kind hearted one of the family and you show the most feeling and compassion than all of us, and that is one of the things we love about you. >>

    Ask your dad to really think about the statement he just made here. Ask him to read it over and over again. Tell him you haven't changed. You still are kind hearted, and you still feel compassion for people. Disagreeing with the religion has not nor will it ever change that. The only difference now is you feel you can no longer lie to yourself about your true feelings. Certain things in the religion are wrong and to keep acting like you believe in things that change once they are proven to be wrong goes against anything that your parents taught you about being truthful. Tell him that they instilled in you the need to be honest and in all honesty you can no longer go along with a religion that hides the fact that they have made false prophecies and have hidden the fat that they protect pedophiles in order to make them selves look blameless in the eyes of the world.

    <<This last conversation and disrespectful response was a direct challenge for us to choose between obedience to what the scriptures teach us or not, and we have got to listen. Yes you are right that it may not be right in your eyes, or in the eyes of people who are not Jehovah's witnesses who may think it is wrong. >>

    Ask your dad exactly who taught him to toss his own child away? Was it the scriptures or was it the Watchtower Bible and tract society? As him if he thinks they will ever change their mind and call it "new light" and allow him to show real love to his daughter again? If they can change the major teaching about the Gentile times, something as simple as loving your daughter who feels she can no longer lie to people on their behalf shouldn't be that hard to do.

    <<Your mother and I can’t just choose what we want to believe and what we don’t what to believe >>

    Tell your dad this is not true. They both choose to believe the JW religion and have accepted the fact that the religion tells them not to investigate or listen to any other way of thinking. To you, that sounds like they did indeed choose what to believe and what not to believe.

    <<We can’t just take the beliefs and choose from column A and then some from B. You know what we believe. That’s not how we do things, we need to accept all that is written. >>

    Ask your dad if he once believed that Armageddon was going to come before 1975? Ask your dad if he once thought those who believed the watchtower organization and were alive in 1914 would never die? Now ask him if he has chosen to believe something different now. Then ask him if that is what he meant by believing something in column A and then not believing it when it is changed in column B.

    Well, this is enough for now. I know you did not want to come off as being too apostate but that is exactly how your parents are going to look at you anyway. You might as well be totally honest with them and give them something intelligent to think about.

    One of two things will happen. They will either make the final cut on the string, or they will start to use their brains and think a little.

    Good luck,

    Dave

  • seven006
    seven006

    Sorry,

    It looks like all my cut and paste quotes disappeared. You'll have to look at their letter and then fit in my responses.

    Dave

  • Odrade
    Odrade

    Dave, thanks for this. I've been wondering how I was going to handle the inevitable "we love you but we can't associate with you" from my family. I see it coming...

    Melissa, thanks for starting this thread, it has been of great help to me too.

    Odrade

  • Tashawaa
    Tashawaa

    There has been so much good advise - and depending on your family, your personality, beliefs, etc. in amonst the range of suggestions I'm sure one will hit home.

    I faced this with my family, and like you, I have one sister "out". At first the pressure was on to attend meetings, "come back", and we finally reponded that the only reason we would go back now would be to have a family relationship. It would not be motivated by anything else, which satisfied my parents and they have quit the pressure.

    I believe wholeheartedly in unconditional love. It is not something taught by JW's. If bringing out issues on thier faith will cause more disruption or hard-feelings, I would be inclined to avoid it. I would acknowledge their feelings and as was suggested by Maverick, treat them normal. YOU DON"T HAVE TO ADDRESS THEIR EMAIL. I'd ignore it. I'd talk about my life. It worked for me. I've had some distrubing letters, but I write back that I was glad to hear from them and I volunteered for the Food Drive. I've mentioned positive things I do in the "world" that we could not do as witnesses. They've softened over the year. I do not hide my beliefs (or lack of them), but I chose not to confront emotionally charged issues. As Amazing brought out, the purpose of these letters is for control, manipulation, etc. You don't have to play their game.

    My 2 cents. and BIG HUGS - its tough and there are no easy answers!

  • seven006
    seven006

    Od,

    It's not necessarily what you say, but how you say it and present it that makes people think. Unfortunately this doesn't work unless a person has an open mind, has the ability to be honest with themselves, and knows how to use a little logic and reasoning. That's why they can only fall back on the magical concept of "faith." Faith does not have to rely on any logic and reasoning, just the ability to lock it out as they "choose" to accept a belief as fact and convert it to blind faith.

    Here are two quotes I that give a little something to think about;

    "There are two ways to slide easily through life; to believe everything or to doubt everything. Both ways save us from thinking".

    -Alfred Korzybski-manhood of humanity (Institute of General Semantics)

    "The family is the essential presence- the thing that never leaves you, even if you find you have to leave it".

    -Bill Buford The New Yorker

    Don't thank me now, I'll bill you and your hubby later. I like scotch.

    Dave

  • jgnat
    jgnat

    You don’t have to go in to paragraphs to explain how you feel. As others have said, standing tall and calmly explaining your position is the best way to go. You may want to say that you desire to follow the bible, too, as in:

    "Honor your father and your mother, so that you may live long in the land the LORD your God is giving you. Exodus 20:12

    You just simply no longer desire to honor an organization as if it were Jehovah himself. You have yet to find a scripture that requires you to do that.

    I particularly dislike the portions that suggest that it is your choice to be cut off from your family. Lay it back on their lap. Tell them your door is always open, and as the JW literature clearly states, it is not necessary for them to shun you.

    http://quotes.jehovahswitnesses.com/DF_DA.htm

  • Dawn
    Dawn

    (((((((((proud...)))))))))

    It sounds like your parents really love you - they are just so mislead.

    Here's how I handled things with my mother and other family members. I told her that I realized I needed to go back to square one and really study the bible to prove to myself what is right - - she agreed with this (as do most JW's when you put it that way). So then I asked her if she could prove to me - using only the bible - that the "faithful and discrete slave" of Matthew is actually the 144,000 of Revelation. I explained to her that unless she could show me this in the bible then how could I believe that the 144,000 were actually the "faithful and discrete slave that serves food at the proper time".

    Since there is NO POSSIBLE WAY to link these two using only the bible she was dead in the water. So I left it open - I told her that when she could show me that using God's word I would return to the meetings.................(ps..I'm not planning any KH visits in this "generation" )

  • bebu
    bebu

    I liked your approach to your mother, Dawn! Solomon would be proud.

    bebu

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