Adam could have put Jehovah In Paradox!

by JohnTron72 54 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • JohnTron72

    Days of Futures Past. Thank you for your careful review of my words. It's obvious you are more knowledgeable than the majority who have posted on here. I wore my mother out with What if? Questions as a child and yes, my mind has a way of always trying to figure out how I would get out of a situation. It is true what some posted on here about Adam and Eve bring childlike in innocence before eating the fruit but, he didn't make Adam a child and he was closer to perfection even after eating the fruit unlike us so, even after the act he could have thought as I had to not fullfil the prophecy. I posted my paridox idea to see what it might Garner and it certainly is getting more replies than my previous post so, it has captured something in the process. Someone replied that God said from this very day of eating the fruit you will die so, he lied. Of course we know that was true because, from that day man aged and died. The scriptures tell us that a day to God is like a thousand years" and we know Adam lived to be over 900 years, Methuselah 969 was the oldest man who lived ever so, the age process in God's time was still a Day. Thank you for extending the imagination with your story, I am going to throw out a new Thought based on the "This Day" Theory. Let's see what response it gets?...

  • caves

    I think I just had an 'Out of Body Experience' while reading this. LMAO!

  • JoenB75
    Adam and Eve account is essentially about the human experience with sin. We start out not knowing good and evil like them and we fall pr God's ordained design. Death is the will of God. Praise God for his mighty redemption 😘. I recommend reading Irenaeus in his proof of the apostolic preaching chapter 14 ☺️
  • cofty

    JohnTron - Are you really taking the Adam and Eve story literally?

    Humans did not descend from a common ancestor 6,000 years ago. How do you account for the many ancient artifacts much older than the biblical Adam. There is a flute made of bone that dates from 42,000 years ago, an ivory figurine called the Venus of Hohle Fels that is 35,000 years old.

    Finding evidence for human activity older than 6,000 years is a regular occurrence for archaeologists.

  • caves

    @Cofty-Finding evidence for human activity older than 6,000 years is a regular occurrence for archaeologists.

    Archaeology is one of my passions. I did so many independent archaeological studies in college and happily gave them to the university. / Had to stop there, got excited a bit. Is it you that finds things on your land with the metal detector? I've been meaning to ask or just look in past threads.

  • JoenB75

    I realize the main topic here is Adam and Eve through the lenses of JW teaching. But it is funny that common doctrine concerning them ignore that they were not allowed to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. So they were innocent and ignorant. It has been in the Bible ever since. They were warned but they did not know. humans keep repeating the same mistakes

  • JoenB75

    I remember dad was very concerned with what he saw as the biggest change between Russell and Rutherford,and the great error of Rutherford, namely that Jehovah was so furious with Adam that he would not allow him a resurrection in the millenium reign. But it was initially Russell that had started the no resurrection to second chance game in that he himself taught a) no resurrection for a few real baddies / "special cases of special unworthyness" lol and b) no resurrection for those that fell away after starting the high calling race for getting Jehovah nature. Next move for Rutherford was a new more "Evangelical" understanding of Matthew 25:31-45 limiting the resurrection candidates among the present living population. Some time after when the NWT came my father also noted the use of the term "memorial grave" rather than just "grave" in John 5:28. Now apparently you could make yourself unworthy of having a "memorial grave" and thus be remembered

  • MeanMrMustard

    Some of this may have already been mentioned. But assuming, first, that the account of history written in Genesis is true, and also assuming we all buy into that, then:

    ...from careful study of the scriptures I've found a loophole that even Adam who was perfect at the time missed!

    It would give any elder a massive erection to think they could best God by acting like a lawyer.

    I'm sure everyone has heard the conundrum about ,"Can God create a Rock he can't lift?" And if he can't create one he can't lift, then God cannot do everything"

    Yeah, but it’s not really a conundrum. Omnipotence doesn’t include the ability to declare logical contradictions as rational. Other forms of this problem include: Can God create a married bachelor? Can God create a being greater than himself and then worship it? The answer to all of these has always been “no”. But that doesn’t have much to do with omnipotence. Nobody ever claimed that God can do “everything”, including nonsense.

    Well that doesn't really matter since we know Jehovah says himself he cannot lie right? Sure he could lie but, he chooses not to right?

    I thought that, theologically, he couldn’t choose to lie any more than you could choose to grow wings and fly. God has been defined as unable to lie. I think they would say that “it is not in his nature”.

    He also chooses to not turn back faults in time or even look ahead to see if something he created ( like the angels, Satan, Man will one day stumble) Right?

    That is JW theology. All the other folks out there think God saw the fall of man coming a mile away, even before creation, because he is omniscient. But assuming JW theology now...

    Well here's a Paradox that could have happened where Adam could have still been Alive to this day! Sure, we all know that Satan used his position to throw a wrench in Jehovah's Cogwheel of plans for all creation but, did you know Adam could have at one moment in time have even bested Satan and actually been the only one who could have made Jehovah's words prove false!!?

    *popcorn sounds*

    Here is what Adam could have done!..Remember how Adam also ate from the tree of Knowledge and Jehovah told him "Did you not remember my saying upon eating of the fruit, from that day you will surely die?"

    Just another insertion here: it was a serious mindfork when I started looking into mainstream Christian theology. They don’t define “die” in this context the way the WT does. To die is more of a “separation” rather than a loss of conscious thought, or ceasing to exist. But anyway, since we are assuming WT theology here...

    Well, [snip for length] HOW SO??

    Even assuming JW theology, I don’t think this works. In JW theology, God doesn’t actually know the future unless he chooses to look. And you are saying he chose to look and told Adam what would happen, giving Adam a chance to stick it to God. You are also assuming Adam understood the prophecy, because it wasn’t exactly straightforward. And I’m not quite sure JW theology asserts that Adam understood God’s words, especially in such detail so as to form a legal plan of attack against the almighty. But let’s assume Adam understood those cryptic words the same way you want him to. I’m still not sure you have a problem for God. You might, but maybe not. I think it would all hinge on you making the case that JW theology is a fatalistic theology.

    It seems to me that a more generic form of your question is “Does divine foreknowledge imply a loss of free will?” Or “Does divine foreknowledge cause the event to occur?” So when Jesus told Peter that he would deny him three times, does that mean that the cause of Peter’s denying was the prophecy itself? Was it his “fate”? If you think JWs are fatalistic, then you might have something. But honestly, I don’t know the official stance of JWs on fatalism.

    You can hold that Adam could choose another path, as Peter could have. But if that choice was made, then the prediction would have been different and not the cause of the resultant outcome.

    So, there is the Paradox everyone, at that one moment 6,000 years ago Adam had the ability to have stuck it to Jehovah even more so than Satan.

    As mentioned, there are a lot of hurdles here.

    If Adam had given some thought to it with his perfect mind, Jehovah would have had to do Man's bidding or his word would have became a lie! "

    At this point, any elder reading this has a fully form pants tent.

  • JohnTron72

    I want to reply on some of the comments regarding this post. If you want to simplify the fact about why God put the tree in the garden, think about this. God gave Adam and Eve everything on Earth to enjoy. If you were God and gave man and woman everything to the eye on Earth freely, how would you know they truly were appricitive of the gift? They didn't have to pray to Jehovah, they could talk with him directly then. Yes, he could see the heart but, out of all that he gave, nothing withheld, he only ask them one simple act to honor the gift by not eating the fruit from one tree. If he hadn't placed the tree there for them and later thier kids to substain from they might have ended up like the people on The Time Machine who had become lazy and unconcerned like when Weena fell in the stream and no one bothered to get up from eating to help her. There has to be respect for God and others even with free will. Man through the centuries proven they can't get along without God. That was the first Lie from Satan, that if they ate the fruit they would see they didn't need God. If you look to this day men have not changed. We certainly need God and Jesus to fix it all. When they rein over the Earth again the message will be clear, you either live good lives and not hurt each other or the animals. If you can't live by that simple rule, you again aren't showing respect to God and aren't worthy of the Sacrifice of Jesus. I understand why Jesus said to be like children. If you ask a kindergartner they would tell you the answer: Just stop fighting Wars and stop harming each other. At some point the badness of this world teaches the children to become self absorbed and hate and lose that innocent quality. You cannot deny this fact is true.

  • cofty

    JohnTron - Many of us used to believe all the same things you do.

    You need to take a step back and examine your fundamental assumptions. How do you know the bible is a reliable source of information and moral guidance? Why are you convinced that a utopian paradise is a real prospect? What is the evidence that the God of the bible exists?

    You are preaching to people who have really wrestled with these questions. Would you appreciate the chance to discuss them - or would you rather be left alone in your certainties?


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