"I'm on the Highway to hell..." I like that song.
Non-believers......... Do they "bash" Believers too hard?
Thanks, I owe you a lot. Before I met you and Julie I just went along in life a little numb and did not know why I was so pissed off at the world. After we met I began to understand why and then began to deal with it and fix it. The ordeal with Chris just about killed me but when I was able to understand what made her the way she is I got angry again. But, this time I got angry for the right reasons and with complete understanding of why and what to do about it.
I will always be in your debt for that. You and Julie helped me realize what a true friend really is. Thanks pal.
I stayed up late so I could add just one more "fuck" to the other thread I started after all the mods had gone to bed.
<<<I think many Ex-dubs see it this way and never even get far enough to even give Christianity or any other belief system a chance. Others have exited dubdom and gone head on with religion again.>>>
This is true and many are better off doing just that. For myself I read and researched more than most have the desire to. I got in to philosophy, psychology, eastern philosophy, history, and science. When you take the time to look at the big picture it makes it easier to see the bullshit.
I based my comments on my own experience with the religion so I wrote about being raised in it. The JW's know that they have to look for converts that look like they are missing something in life. Or as they say, the meek, the humble and the teachable. In other words, easy targets. Just to give you an idea, here is Websters definition of the word meek;
Main Entry: meek
Etymology: Middle English, of Scandinavian origin; akin to Old Norse mj'ukr gentle; akin to Welsh mwyth soft
Date: 13th century
1 : enduring injury with patience and without resentment : MILD
2 : deficient in spirit and courage : SUBMISSIVE
3 : not violent or strong : MODERATE
- meek·ly adverb
- meek·ness noun
Notice the second and third definition. Deficient in sprit and courage. The JW's as well as other religions look for this in people so they can try and replace what they see as something lacking with something that simply fills a void. They don't try to really get to know what psychological event or situation brought these people to this point but simply try to squeeze in what they fell will fix them. that's why AA has a 12 step program and a serenity prayer. Replace alcohol with god. Or, replace one codependency with another.
Most people when they are down will look for anything that will help take them out of their funk. Religion offers false promisees to fill that void. Not one single religion on earth has ever proven that what they promise about life after death or an earthy paradise earth has ever come true. That is where the good old pulling a rabbit out of a hat magical word "faith" pops up. As I have e said before, it like a con man saying "trust me" and the gullible do just that.
<<<I want to say I appreciate the time you took to write all that you did and you covered so many of the points I didn't mention that I feel are true. Thanks,>>>
Hey I was on a roll yesterday. The mod's an I were playing cat and mouse and I just got a little carried away. Someone has to make them work for the slave wages Simon pays them.
<<<Gee.........your not the braindead, drunken, slothful person Dannybear said you was after all.>>>
Yes, I am. Actually I don't drink much at all unless Alan F. is in town. Then we float a brains on a week long bender. It's kind of like a forced vacation from intelligence.
If you think about what I said you might get a clue about why so many jump on the preaching. I am a mod on another DB and we have one rule, NO Preaching!. It is a recovery board for exJW's. Preaching there is like taking a bottle of vodka to an AA meeting. I don't post there much, it moves a little too slow.
As I told you before, I look at you more as a person than a Christian. I think the way you are is because of who you are as a person, not as a Christian. If you became a Buddhist I think you'd still be a good guy. That is a big difference between being a believer and a nonbeliever. Nonbelievers tend to look at a person as a person first then as a Christian or what ever. Believers tend look at the belief affiliation first then the person.
You are OK in my book, I just ignore the fact that you are a Christian. I agree with you. Live and let live. But, when there is a thread where someone is preaching, the action-reaction part of me jumps in. I can't help it, I'm not a very meek kind'a guy.
There is life after the watchtower. Sometimes it just takes time to find out exactly what that life is. You have to clean out all the crusty, dirty, moldy crap out of a pot before you try and cook something new in it. Some times you need to scrub extra hard to get the hidden bacteria and fungus completely out.
Some people keep some of the crap in the pot and call it "seasoned." Some of us just call it still dirty. It's not the obvious crap that is easy to see most of us have a hard time getting over, it's the tiny invisible clinging germs that keep us messed up.
We all have different taste, but seeing icky slimy stuff floating on the top of my stew makes me wanna puke.
I hate the Watchtower cult, but since they are protected by law there isn't much I can do to hurt them or get them back for their bullshit. The thing is, things are starting to change. I think it's only a matter of time where religion is going to get more exposed for their mind controlling bullshit. Molesting priests, religious fanatics crashing planes into buildings etc. The world is starting to wake up to the controlling psychological damage religion is doing to the world. A few more religious fanatics pop a few more bullets into their kids brains and people will start to take a little more notice. When laws start to change, then justice can take care of the religions that cover themselves up behind it's protection. They won't be able to hide any more. When that happens I will be so far up the Watchtowers ass The won't know whether to spit or gargle.
This may sound a little too "Rodney King-during-the-LA-riots", but why bash anybody?
The main lesson I learned after leaving the Witnesses was that I don't know everything. (OK, so it took me 10 years to really get it...)
The main decision I made afterwards was that I didn't have to go around making sure that everyone else had their s#$% wired tight... that I would have enough to do the rest of my days wiring (and re-wiring:) my own.
There are a lot of former JW's on this board who thought they were right when they were JW's, and they think they're right now, about whatever it is they think they're right about, so they keep telling everyone how right they are, and when they change their mind about that new opinion, then they'll think they're right about the replacement, and they'll spam the fricking board with their newest opinions, all positioned as written-in-stone as the right way to think.
Well, guys, we were all wrong before, so why are you cocky now? Are you suddenly smarter? (More aware, more conscious, I'll buy... but smarter?) Jeez, you know, there are several decaffeinated brands on the market every bit as tasty as the real thing. Lighten up!
If you have opinions, as we all do, why not present them as politely phrased statements of opinion? It's a discussion board, not a venue for showing how "right" you are all the time. (There's a name for people that the\ink they are never wrong... they're engineers :)
I'm not a believer, but I expect there to be discussion about beliefs on a board like this... and I respect each individual's right to be wrong without me yelling at him/her about how wrong he/she is. (Just as I have that same right - we don't listen 'til we're ready anyway.)
And I'll go to great lengths, even go to war and die if need be, for your right to have that opinion or belief free from harassment. (And I'm a Democrat! :)
Whoops - it double-posted...
No apology necessary, I believe you expressed yourself well.
My turn to apologise - where did I appear to side-step you? That wasn't my intention.
If it was in regard to letting someone believe something untrue - my point was that in certain circumstances I would. I think you have to take into account an individuals state of mind, before dropping psychological bombshells on them. Admittedly, that's difficult, on a forum such as this, but I find myself trying to put myself into other people's shoes before posting (not always successfully, but at least I don't take the attitude of "b*gger them, they can deal with the information however they will!!").
Is it really just a case of "where will I go", though?
That may be the case for some, but that really isn't what I'm driving at.
If you are going to destroy an individuals framework for life, you'd better be able to supplant it with something credible, rather than just hoping the "human spirit" will give them enough fortitude to survive the mental storm (IMHO).
I believe that some are incapable of making the transition, other than in stages (sometimes baby steps), others may have difficulty acclimatising at all. I guess that what I'm coming down to is a little consideration for peoples growth and mental health. Hitting them with a sledgehammer, when they just cant take it, isn't humane (again IMHO).
Now I REALLY want to know what it means. Was is derogatory???
Humour me, please, as we all learn something new every day.
Well, Christians are f*cked up anyway so why shouldn't I point that out to them?
Actually, that really is your attitude, isn't it?
Frankly, you're welcome to it, but don't expect me not to object.
Some beliefs are far less damaging than others.
If living a "wholesome life"[tm] and having a nice social group, are the baggage of holding a certain belief set - why begrudge someone that?
If, on the other hand, their belief set encourages them to withhold lifesaving medical treatment - I think you have a case.
For some, holding certain beliefs is no worse than believing their football team will win, this year.
Like yourself, I have a low threshhold for "ram it down your throat" types, and more overtly spank them
I can understand why a knee-jerk reaction is increasing, if you are finding that the religious in your own patch is becoming more bigotted, though.
At least you're honest!
Was that a dig? Just checking
Still waiting for those answers...
Dave:Maybe that's where I'm coming unstuck, too. I look at the person, before the title, as well.
As I commented to Bradley, I can't stand people pushing things, either. The phrase that jumps to mind is "prove it!!!", when I'm confronted by a bigot of whatever persuasion (an example was a thread where I argued with ClashCityRockers, who attends a denomination similar to the one I commonly attend).
I also draw a sharp line between people expressing themselves "spiritually", and "religion" or "denomination".
The latter can be particularly dangerous, though are often an expression of the former.
I think it's generally ok if it's kept in it's place, otherwise it can be as bad as the WTS.
Phantom:Great first post - I take it you've been lurking a while?
Welcome to the board.
I wholeheartedly agree with what you wrote.
I AM a "believer", but I don't feel it proper to be dogmatic about anything, since my "beliefs" continue to evolve.
I'll still attempt to argue a good case, though
Gumby & all:This is an excellent thread.
Thanks for starting & contributing to it.
Personally I don't harass or argue when the subject matter is so subjective. I discuss and voice my opinion. If some see that as harassment like KGB did maybe, they need to take a better look at themselves and get a clue.
If a person walks into the middle of a gay bar and yells out the word "faggot" they should expect to get their ass beat.
This is a board full of pissed off exJW's. Common sense should click in and a person should think before they preach.
If I posted on a Christian board I would expect a negative reaction. On any DB you take your chances when you voice an opinion. It's all a part of playing on the Internet.
Welcome Phantom Stranger !
Great first post! I too don't believe that anything is 100% solid including my beliefs. I look at that evidence and what it suggests and decide what to believe based on the facts I have at hand so far, but that is always subject to change. Therefore I try not to bash anybody. They may just not be looking at the same evidence I am or they found some new evidence that I'm not aware of. I quit looking at the world as black-and-white when I left the JW faith.
Gotcha LT, I've been trying as of late to do the same. (not much success)
The JW's know that they have to look for converts that look like they are missing something in life. Or as they say, the meek, the humble and the teachable. In other words, easy targets.
Main Entry: meek
2 : deficient in spirit and courage : SUBMISSIVE
3 : not violent or strong : MODERATE
Damn Dave.....your STILL on a roll even after staying up late so you could cuss.
I found your above statement a new thought for me about the word "MEEK" ......who the hell wuda thunk that? This might explain all the goats at the door eh? If I remember correctly only about 5% of Bible studies of the dubs ever do anything about it. Ya think theres a world out there of "meek" people.... or is there another problem that the dubs figures aren't above that 5 %?
Actually I think there are wise people who are meek, but even they succumb to religion. Jesus ....if he even existed, ghandi, were said to be meek yet they were also wise. I understand you did not mean this word to apply in every situation so I'm not disagreeing and I am with you on this.
Most people when they are down will look for anything that will help take them out of their funk. Religion offers false promisees to fill that void.
Personally I feel this is the MAIN reason that people want to worship something. Mankind is built to want answers and reason for his existance. Man has wanted this from his beggining which explains why primitive tribes who have no outside influence will worship something they feel is higher than they. People want to know the reason for their existence.
I gots go take a pee now so you can finish schooling us on this matter if you would............ya sick bastard
Again.......THANK YOU. Thanks to everyone else too. I am thanking you especially dave cuz I feel you need reassurance because of your drinking problem and not because your a terrific writer ......so don't go and get all exited and stuff.
Gumby ( sorry for my horrid spelling....I'm a dumbass)
Great thread Gumby
I'd have to agree with Dave for the most part....Like Logan and Obiwan I would love to have every JW in the world know what I know and feel the same as I do about the WTBTS. I would give anything to see my immediate family out of the Org..then I look at my aged mother...She's happy where she's at in the Org...I've tried to talk to her and saw the pain and confusion in her eyes..the, this can't be wrong I've lost family and friends didn't allow some of my children to have surgery which was needed sometimes for years because I was afraid of blood transfusions, endured years with an abusive husband who beat me and my children and was promoted in Gods organization.
What do I do Obiwan/logan do I force the issue to free her from the cult or do I let her live out her remaining years believing she has made the right decision, every time I've brought it up she's become visibly ill.
As far as the whole KGB story goes.....He has a short fuse and probably should not be on this forum at least until he is stronger.
If a person is a christian or not should not determine how he treats his fellow man, saying I'm christian or I'm not christian is a banner I no longer give a rats ass about when determining what kind of person you are, the best compliment you can give me is to call me a good man or a good father.
Reading KGB's posts you learn he has physical ailments and takes lots of meds to handle the pain this in conjunction with his temper made him an easy target. My point is when you see an easy target sometimes its the humane and compassionate person who is able to restrain himself from squeezing the trigger and waiting for game which is healthy and able to protect itself. I don't necessarily think KGB was targeted but it would not kill anyone to hold back occasionaly when posting replies. Occasionaly I said because as was already stated this is a discussion board and if you can't discuss things openly then why come here. Just remember many on the forum are damaged goods.