Non-believers......... Do they "bash" Believers too hard?

by gumby 66 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • gumby

    I have been beginning to wonder if those that have come to disbelieve in the bible as God's word, and those who believe in no God at all............use the wrong verbage here. Is it disrespectful to those who believe.... for non-believers to say things against what believers hold so precious? Many have moved on, or..... mentioned they do not post their true feeling here on certain subjects for fear they will be harrassed by others here.

    First off....I'll admit I'm a guilty one for doing this very thing but have been wondering if I'm out of line as well as others who post similar ideas in the same TYPE of manner. Many of us kid and joke one another, yet there are times when our own deep seated hurts come through pretty strong in our comments especially when it comes to religion.

    So..........what are your guys thoughts about this?


    BTW.....this ain't a KGB thing, but is something I've been wondering about before that happened. It did set it in motion though)

  • Swan

    I believe I am very respectful of believers on their threads. I even respect their ability to believe! I just don't have that faith any more and wonder if I ever will again. But I don't try to cover up my lack of belief on other threads. I state what I think and why I think it. I certainly am not preachy about non-belief. I really don't care if other people think the way I do or not.

    I have noticed that about some believers. If you tell them you don't believe, then they think it is their duty to convert you. For a non-believer, there is no pressure to "convert" anyone. I don't win a toaster oven if I get a certain quota to reject god every month, so I really think that if your faith fills a certain need in your life then go for it. I'm behind that 100%. It just isn't for me anymore, so please don't try to use me to win a toaster oven this month.

    As for bashing, I am more concerned about the recent gay-bashing that goes on here. I kind of see that as a backlash to the recent Supreme Court decision and the Canadian rulings for same-sex marriage, but I imagine it must hurt those who are gay and come here. I saw one poster start a thread announcing his upcoming nuptials to his same-sex partner and some decided that would be a great thread to turn from congratulations and well wishing to something that no heterosexual couple would ever face here.

    So yes, I see bashing go on here, but believers sometimes can be the bashers as well as the bashees. I just wish it would kind of all go away and we would realize that we actually can live with each others differences even if we don't agree with them.


  • seven006


    I think as time goes on and each one of us continues to adjust our lives trying to fit into the rest of the world we go through various phases of thoughts on god and religion, some cling onto the basics and some toss it all in the garbage.

    The problem here between Christians and the non Christians is simple. Since each one of us are exJW's we will have to spend the rest of our lives dealing with what that religion did to us and our relationship with our families.

    On a personal basis some of us have in the past and still do feel a bit socially retarded. We did not learn simple things that non JW's learned growing up. Dating, school dances, sports, teen parties and other things that seem trivial in the whole scheme of things but as far as social growth and emotional acceptance they were as important as any academic lessons we learned growing up. Instead of a healthy childhood we learned how to hide our true feelings and even more tragic, we learned how to lie to ourselves. We have to continually ask ourselves how do we really feel about everyday things. Do we think one way or another because of our past programing or can we actually form an objective opinion based on our own thinking? That makes a lot of us insecure and self doubting. The mind fuck from the religion is a hard thing to see and even harder to adjust.

    All those social things should have been a part of our life and part of our growth. The Watchtower society stole that from us and now we are all dealing with the effect of that psychological theft. We are not JW's anymore but we don't seem to quite fit in with the rest of the world. We are misfits, understood and accepted only among ourselves. The religion turned our parents and friends into liars and they took from us what should have been our strongest foundation in our lives. They are thieves and liars and as long as they put on a happy face and polish the door knobs bright and shiny at Bethel they think all is well.

    There are things in life we don't quite understand because we were never allowed to learn and we make stupid and embarrassing mistakes because of it. We fumble through social settings trying to learn how to fit in and we walk away feeling awkward and maladjusted. We blame the screwed up religion for that. We also blame them for stealing the minds and hearts of our parents and siblings. We have been mentally and socially raped and to make it worse, we have been left alone in life to deal with our pain.

    Then comes along someone who tells us to take it to Jesus or god or the lord. That is poison to our ears. No matter how someone tries to repackage the goods, it's still the same old foul smelling bullshit inside.

    Those who need the structure of religion just change teams from being a JW to some other Jesus team. They go on with their codependents with something the rest of us detest. We see religion, any religion, as the thing that stole our childhood and took our mental and social virginity and killed our families.

    Some of us try to separate the multitude of religions that may make a little sense and give us just a tiny bit of some kind of spiritual feeling. The more we read, the more we learn, we see it's all the same bullshit. Phony smiles, empty promises and lack of any historical or logical substance. Just a controlling group of people who tell us we need them because they love us. We have all learned that religions define the word "love" according to their own agendas. I don't think anyone really knows the real meaning of love unless they understand the meaning of having lost love. Having our families and friends turn their backs on us has taught us the opposite of love so we have redefined the true meaning of the word as something none of them will ever understand.

    If someone came into our house and kidnapped our parents and friends, they would be caught and brought to justice. But since the watchtower publishing cult hides behind the protection of the label "religion" they can mentally and emotionally kidnap our families and get away with it. That is hard for society to understand because it is not a tangible or physical crime. It is a crime perpetrated on our insides, the emotional and the psychological.

    If the Christians here cannot understand this, then they never really left the JW's or it's kind of manipulation. No matter how you package it, the bible's bullshit smells the same to us no matter what new and improved labeling you print on the front of it's box.

    Whether we are atheist or agnostics, we've heard it all before and it makes us sick. Some of us have no problem living and sharing with those here who are Christians just as long as they don't try and shove it down our throats or pawn it off as an absolute to happiness in life. If you try and stick anything down someone's throat, you get puked on.

    It is the simplest rule of physics, action-reaction.

    I may be wrong, but this is how I see it.


  • AlanF

    Excellent post, Dave!


  • gumby

    Well first of all Dave........what the hell are you doing up this damn late after all you've had to drink little MR.?

    You wanna know what I had trouble with in this post of yours? It was hard finding out which point I wanted to comment on with all the good stuff you just wrote. Your pretty damn good ya bastard!

    Those who need the structure of religion just change teams from being a JW to some other Jesus team. They go on with their codependents with something the rest of us detest. We see religion, any religion, as the thing that stole our childhood and took our mental and social virginity and killed our families.

    I think many Ex-dubs see it this way and never even get far enough to even give christianity or any other belief system a chance. Others have exited dubdom and gone head on with religion again.

    Many were not however "raised" as a Witness, and never had anything stole from them other than a few years of their lives and know little about the organisation .... or have any backround on religion.These are the ones it seems who have no room for religious intolerence.

    For me.........I was lied to my whole life as I was raised a dub. I wasn't purposely lied to by those who taught me....they simply believed the lie as I did. Then I embraced Christianity for about 7 years.

    When a person falls for something......then realises he fell for something.........then falls for something AGAIN....and finds out it's a lie can really piss a guy off. When a person learns of what the bible is made of and has put their entire trust into it and it's message, then builds his life around that message...... and their deepest feelings and convictions are based on that message.........then that person finds out that message is......."balony" (trying to be nice ) it turns your world upside down!!!!!!

    You realise your 49 years old and you have lived a life believing a frickin lie. Damn!

    This is the reason why I am so bitter and mad when it comes to this stuff. To think of how much of mankind has lived and believed something that is not true and that something has effected so many lives in so many ways......makes a person want to tell others......"hey don't go's bullshit, here, read this and learn about it"

    These ones who will not listen to what others have learned about the bible and will not consider that they could be wrong.........reminds us of how we were when we were dubs and would not listen to healthy critizism about it.......I see NO difference.

    I want to say I appreciate the time you took to write all that you did and you covered so many of the points I didn't mention that I feel are true. Thanks,

    Gee.........your not the braindead, drunken, slothful person Dannybear said you was after all.


  • Panda

    Dave and Gumby, Both of your posts were great, really on the mark. I wasn't raised a dub but I did spend almost 20 yrs in the borganization. I think you both touched on that you'd been lied to your whole life. I can see that must be so. Some of us xjws had also been lied to before and came to the WTS thinking we'd found "truth" Imagine figuring that that was a lie too.

    So here we all post together. This forum is a major place for healing. Even though Christians and non-Christians don't agree it shouldn't matter because we are all part of an important healing. Hearts are mended on this forum. The fact that we disagree makes us even more intimate. So we care for one another.

    Are any of us done learning --- no way. Once we started on this odessey there doesn't seem to be a way of stopping. And the more we learn the better prepared we are to live. If people need religion, well okay, that's them and why should I attempt to disuade(sp?) them. The problems arrise when religion wants a place in public schools or libraries. Unfortunately some children think that creationism is a science ... We are taking the rights to information away from kids when the religious decide that any pseudo science is better than the truth. I guess I'm saying that reality is more interesting than their policed opinions.

    Christians raz each other too. Some believe X others Y, nothing which is provable so why argue? I think about the Reformation and all the wars over religion. Those are the things I disagree with, hey believe what you want just don't expect other people to share your fantasies faith.

    I don't think I "blast" christians. I give my honest thoughts. Isn't debate part of socialization and community?

  • Gopher

    I honestly don't think "believers" are bashed that hard for believing. They may be bashed if they believe they hear God's voice or if they themselves demonstrate intolerance.

    You said:

    Many have moved on, or..... mentioned they do not post their true feeling here on certain subjects for fear they will be harrassed by others here.

    Why have such "fear"? This is only a discussion board. It will not kill you if others happen to publically disagree with you here.

    On the other hand, sometimes believers have posted their views with the reasoning that "I believe this to be true because I have experienced the Lord in my life", or they may say "you just HAVE to believe" without backing it up with empirical logic. By non-believers pointing out that these things are merely beliefs and not facts, some believers may feel harrassed. But it is not harrassment, it is merely disagreement.

    Oh and one more thing. Some "believers" (of whatever stripe of faith) feel it is incumbent on them to try to continually preach to others about such "beliefs" at each opportunity. If they insist on doing so without the listener's assent, THEY are the ones doing the harrassing.

  • LittleToe

    Sorry, but I can't help but feel that there are some double standards going on here.
    Maybe I'm picking you guys up wrong...

    You don't want "believers" to espouse any of their beliefs, but believe that an "unbeliever" has the right to dive in with theirs (or lack thereof)?
    Some of you have come to un"believe" - that's your perogative, and no doubt sincerely held.
    Believe it or not, that doesn't of necessity make you right (or wrong).

    IMHO "unbelievers" can be just as vehement in stating their beliefs as the "believers".
    They jump all over threads, where "believers" wish to discuss and grow, and interject with all sorts of detracting comments. It often places "unbelievers" every much in the role of "bigot", as is the flame-spouting fundamentalist.

    Let me just say this - if folks want to believe in pink unicorns, why not let them?
    As long as they aren't harming themselves or others, emotionaly, psychologically, or physically, what's the big deal?
    It's all part of our growth.
    If you sincerely believe they are wrong, why do you feel the necessity to shortcut their growth, possibly exacting further damage? Goodness knows we've all been damaged enough, even in our extraction from the borg. Growth is in stages - why try to force-grow people into your stature of maturity, when you cannot be categorically sure that you really have anything to offer.

    Just my 2p - good thread.

  • SpannerintheWorks

    Hi, LittleToe. You said,

    Let me just say this - if folks want to believe in pink unicorns, why not let them?

    Because they are mentally ill and need psychiatric help.


  • LittleToe

    And your connection to the JW's is???

    Besides - are you saying that all Christians (and I could probably add a pile of other religions or spiritual paths, here) are mentally ill?
    Proof, please...

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