I can't believe Amazon.com is selling this trash.

by JeffT 71 Replies latest watchtower child-abuse

  • rem
    rem

    Who cares what Walmart does? They have a different policy. Theirs is a family-oriented store and they have no qualms about censoring and banning certain items in their store. I have no problem with that because that is the purpose of the store - it's a place for families.

    Amazon is not. Amazon is a place for the free exchange of ideas (and other products). They don't claim to be 'family friendly'. As far as I know their principles guide them to make any (legal) published work available. I believe this is an honorable charter and I support it. Yes, this means that things I don't agree with will be available, but that also means that the information will be freely available to rebut.

    Again, nobody I know or here has actually read the book in question, so really all you are going off of is second and third hand information. You have no evidence that this is a 'how to' manual for pedofiles. You just assume things because of the title and the knee-jerk, irrational reactions of certain people.

    Next we'll have Amazon remove Stephen King books because they are 'how to' manuals for murderers. Maybe a free society is just too much for some people to handle?

    rem

  • czarofmischief
    czarofmischief

    Hm.

    Good points, rem. However, this is such a volatile topic.

    Remember the spike in the demonic possession of St. Bernards after Cujo came out?

    CZAR

  • Yerusalyim
    Yerusalyim

    REM,

    You're right, I haven't read the book, but have read the reviews of those who have...Your lack of sympathy for those who have been and will be molested is appalling...as is your intellectual dishonesty in trying to make this a "free speech" or "censorship" issue.

    Wal-Mart did NOT censor the book...it made a free market decision not to run it.

    It's liberal nonsense like this that is destroying the US....we can have books promoting pedophilia for sale on the net...but we can't have the 10 commandments....or any religious symbol...in a court of law.

    NAMBLA has been responsible for more than one child being raped...and there is a case pending over a rape and murder of a 10 year old boy connected to articles in a NAMBLA magazine...but you're right...it's a "free speech" issue....SO MUCH BULL $HIT. It's a common sense issue. Raping kids is wrong...and a book that promotes such has NO BUSINESS being sold by anyone I do business with.

    Yes, I have from the beginning conceded that Amazon has a right to do this...legally (but not morally). I also know that my business won't be missed by them...but there is prinicple.

    But it just aggravates the hell out of me when liberal loonies start bantering about their favorite catch phrases like "Free Speech" and "Censorship" it's a bogus arguement.

  • Cassiline
    Cassiline
    Amazon is not. Amazon is a place for the free exchange of ideas (and other products). They don't claim to be 'family friendly'. As far as I know their principles guide them to make any (legal) published work available. I believe this is an honorable charter and I support it. Yes, this means that things I don't agree with will be available, but that also means that the information will be freely available to rebut.

    You ignore the fact Amazon did remove two books. I do wonder how many others have been removed on the same and different subjects. So if they censor those 2 books they are NOT supporting free speech whatsoever. If one goes by your argument that Amazon is supporting free speech then its strange as they are picking and choosing what free speech they will allow.

    Again, nobody I know or here has actually read the book in question, so really all you are going off of is second and third hand information. You have no evidence that this is a 'how to' manual for pedofiles. You just assume things because of the title and the knee-jerk, irrational reactions of certain people.

    TRIGGERS MAY APPEAR BELOW

    If you or a loved one have been the victim of these predators then I have no clue how you can support such 'free speech" I am not a religious fanatic trying to assure "god" is in everyones home. I want to assure that children are not suffering any more, period. I feel if you have not suffered such a violation it may be hard for you to comprehend the pain one does go through. I also feel because I am a survivor and well as my children I may be a little too passionate about the subject.

    You may also not be aware of the planning and web-sites dedicated to pedophiles who need new ways to get our precious children. The book is published by "Safe Haven Publishing Company". A safe haven for these jerks is the last thing they need. I am angered by the fact that this priest who just was murdered in prison did not get to spend a bit more time there being tortured as he tortured small children.

    I support a death sentence or life for pedophiles. It is a proven fact 75% or more can't be rehabilitated. Why allow books to be published on a subject that does not counsel but encourage a pedophile by offering safe haven and comfort?

    Next we'll have Amazon remove Stephen King books because they are 'how to' manuals for murderers. Maybe a free society is just too much for some people to handle?

    Fiction vs. reality of pedophilia this man is selling are two totally opposite things.

    I said in the above post that I had not read the book. It was screwed up and did not show as the post showed quotes I did not write as well. If you yourself read the quotes readily avaliable you will find this is not a "knee jerk" reaction but my being frightened for millions of children and their parents who are in harms way because this person wants to educate the public on illegal activities of these perverts. IMO he does not wish to educate anyone but gain sympathy for his cause. If you read NAMBLA I hope you will become as sickened as myself reading those grown men crying and whining because the baby they wished to rape got away.

    Cassi

  • SanFranciscoJim
    SanFranciscoJim
    It's liberal nonsense like this that is destroying the US....

    I disagree. Liberals have not destroyed the economy here in the past four years, nor brought us into a war under false pretenses.

    we can have books promoting pedophilia for sale on the net...but we can't have the 10 commandments....or any religious symbol...in a court of law.

    I will preface my next statement with my utter hatred of pedophilia.

    Having said that, I don't recall any organized group of pedophiles being responsible for the mass slaughter of tens of thousands of innocents simply because they refused to bow to a christian deity and turn away from their inherited pagan beliefs. There is an intelligent reason why we have separation of church and state.

    You are comparing apples and oranges. The defense of religion has no place in a discussion about the molestation of defenseless children.

  • rem
    rem
    Your lack of sympathy for those who have been and will be molested is appalling...

    All I see here is irrational ranting. No real substance. Go ahead and boycott Amazon. It's what all you fanatical irrational types do (go ahead and boycott the company who moved the Ten Commandments monument too while you're at it). You simply cannot conceive of a free market place for ideas. I feel that is sad. But it's the way religious types have always dealt with ideas they disliked. Ban them. Censor them. Denigrate those who defend the free expression of ideas.

    And yes, Walmart has done more than just decide not to sell certain items. They have censored certain items including music CD's. If enough retailers make the 'free market decision' do not sell a certain item, it basically becomes the same thing as banning it. And really, how much of a 'free market decision' is it when you are dealing with irrational boycotters? Basically you are slyly using capitalism to subvert the Bill of Rights which is there to protect the minority from the majority by forcing companies to ignore the desires of the minority. I'm glad our government doesn't work that way - otherwise we'd be a theocracy by now.

    The fact that Amazon has capitulated to boycotts in the past troubles me. It just goes to show that this world is full of irrational religious types who can't seem to think beyond "this book bad". It is a business, after all. Still, it's sad.

    NAMBLA has been responsible for more than one child being raped...and there is a case pending over a rape and murder of a 10 year old boy connected to articles in a NAMBLA magazine

    So not only does NAMBLA promote rape, but it also promotes murder now? That's news to me! How about we make people responsible for their own actions and stop trying to place the blame elsewhere.

    rem

  • rem
    rem

    Cassiline,

    You ignore the fact Amazon did remove two books. I do wonder how many others have been removed on the same and different subjects. So if they censor those 2 books they are NOT supporting free speech whatsoever. If one goes by your argument that Amazon is supporting free speech then its strange as they are picking and choosing what free speech they will allow.

    Yeah, that is sad. But they are a business, and if enough irrational people boycott, what other choice do they have? That's not to say they did it because they agree with the boycotters. Your non-argument is uncompelling.

    I also feel because I am a survivor and well as my children I may be a little too passionate about the subject.

    Exactly. Your reaction is irrational, though understandably so.

    Fiction vs. reality of pedophilia this man is selling are two totally opposite things.

    Oh, so you wouldn't mind a fictional novel about an older man who likes to stalk young children? This novel would have dialogue from the protaganist that explains why he feels what he is doing is ok and that society just doesn't understand. Would you boycott Amazon if they carried such a book? How is that different than certain murder mysteries? Is pedophillia worse than murder and torture? How so? This sounds like special pleading to me.

    rem

  • Yerusalyim
    Yerusalyim

    REM,

    Make your case for how it would be censorship or infringement of free speech to NOT carry this trash?

    Free Speech...I can write or say ANYTHING I want as long as it doesn't overtly harm others. That is free speech...however...I send a letter to the editor of a newspaper...they decide to NOT publish the letter. That is neither a violation of my free speech nor censorship...it was an editorial decision.

    No one stopped me from writing the letter...no one stopped me from submitting the letter...but I have no gaurantee nor RIGHT to expect it to be published.

    The same is true with Amazon...just because they don't carry a book doesn't violate someone's right to free speech. A good friend of mine wrote a very good book titled "Tragedy and Triumph"...Amazon decided not to carry it...his free speech wasn't violated...nor was he censored.

    Given all this...how the HELL would not carrying this trash be censorship or enfringement on the right to free speech?

    SANFRAN

    There is an intelligent reason why we have separation of church and state.

    I've looked for YEARS and still haven't found that phrase in our Constitution.

    "Congress shall make no law respecting and establishment of religion nor prohibiting the free exercise thereof..."

    I see that CONGRESS shall not ESTABLISH a religion...but I sure as heck don't see SEPERATION of CHURCH and STATE...that was NOT the intention of the framers.

    You are comparing apples and oranges. The defense of religion has no place in a discussion about the molestation of defenseless children.

    Actually, yes...it does...it seems like the only speech not allowed in the public domain is that concerning religion.

    Like it or not, the basis of our laws in this nation were JudeoChristian ethics...The 10 Commandments are part of that ethic. Having these displayed in a public court house in no way "Establishes" a religion...it serves as a remindcer on what basis our laws were made...and the fact that civilization would run pretty good if these were VOLUNTARILY adhered to.

    When the Supreme Court no longer opens with "God save the United States and this Honorable Court" when the congress no longer opens with prayer...when "In God We Trust" is no longer on our currency, when Statues of "Liberty" are no longer on public display ("Liberty is a goddess ya know), when the military no longer has chaplains...when the bible scenes are sand blasted from the Supreme Court building...when religion is removed from the "Public" air waves...when all recognition or reference to any form of diety is to be seen anywhere in public life...to include getting rid of all the statuary of the various"gods and goddesses" represented at court buildings and government offices...then someone go and make the case for removing the 10 commandments.

    Yes...this discussion belongs together when we sit in a world where kids can't organize a prayer group at school or take a minute for private prayer at the beginning of the day...yet we can learn all about Steve Has Two Dads" and Islam is a course offered at a California High School...yes...I think this discussion fits in well. Like I said...the only speech the ACLU wants to defend is the speech it agrees with...

    REM, you're a supporter of the ACLU aren't you?

    Anyway...I'm through with this conversation. Rem...go on making the case for "free speech"...twist the constitution a bit more...it's pretty much a worthless rag now anyway.

  • JeffT
    JeffT

    Hey, REM you want to be the guest of honor at a gang bang?

    Those that don't have penises can bring broomsticks.

    How about if we just limit ourselves to stealing all your stuff? Is that OK?

    Don't dare tell me you're offended at me exercising my rights to free speech, you're the one that seems to think anybody can say anything. I'll stand by my original position, promoting the abuse of children is flat out wrong. And by giving these perverts the opportunity to spread their crap Amazon and anybody else that distributes this book is promoting the advocation of criminal activity.

    Here's a heads up: the first amendment to the constitution only applies to the US government. Corporations and individuals are absolutely within their rights to tell some one to STFU.

  • Big Tex
    Big Tex

    There is no such thing as absolute free speech or free press. There is the old cliche in law school that one cannot yell "Fire" in a crowded theater. That is a limit on free speech. A television news report cannot libel some Hollywood celebrity (or anyone else for that matter). That is a limit on free speech.

    The yellow journalism practiced in the 19th century led to libel laws being passed. One cannot print anything in the newspaper or magazine. That is a limit on free press.

    So the question then becomes how much do we limit speech and how much do we limit the press (i.e., books, magazines, etc.)? Recently hate crime laws have been passed, as have sexual harassment laws. Both can limit free speech. I think it is up to each generation to decide how far to limit their freedoms. The pendlum has swung both ways in the history of this country.

    I think it is short sighted to bellow loudly regarding absolute freedom of speech. We went through that this time last year on this site, which led to a "censor free" site being created. It wasn't long before that site was overrun with Nazi propaganda, which demonstrates a major drawback of absolute freedom of speech and press. It will be abused by the most extreme elements and degenerate to the lowest common denominator.

    As far as this book, and others like it, I find it repugnant and disgusting but not surprising. Those elements are out there, and what you're reading and hearing is what has been said and done behind closed doors for a long time. It's just out in the open now. There are a great many people who are working very hard to acclimate people to the idea of sex with children. It's not phrased or presented that way, but the goal is the same. I'm afraid we're losing the battle.

    If I were CEO of Amazon, I would not sell trash like this. Books, websites, etc. like this will influence the weak minded. Having said that, I am not inclined to boycott Amazon for selling this book. Cynically I'm aware they are probably doing so, not because of the "morality" of freedom of the press, but because they're making money doing so. Instead, I am in favor of educating people, spreading the word about what's out there. I showed this to a co-worker and she was beyond being shocked. Knowledge is power. I believe the more people know how pedophiles think, the more aware they are of how dangerous it is to allow sex and children to mix.

    I think more good can be done by showing this web page, and all the little pedophile comments on it, to as many people as possible. It's shocking to read someone talking about advocating the age of consent being 4 years old. Remember that shock the next time someone advocates this aberrant behavior as "alternative love", or talks about the beauty of it.

    Incest, and sexual abuse, is not the case of some slinky nymphette named Lolita seducing a reluctant older man. No. Instead it is dirty, it is humiliating and it is embarassing. A child who is used sexually by an adult is forever changed. There is before and there is after. But the experience is not a good one. Anyone who says otherwise is trying to sell you something.

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