I can't believe Amazon.com is selling this trash.

by JeffT 71 Replies latest watchtower child-abuse

  • Abaddon
    Abaddon

    No one yet has said one thing that makes me think any action will result from this other than MAYBE Amazon dropping the book.

    It seems some people are reacting to its easy availability rather than it being legal to produce; is it better if it's swept under the carpet?

    And those that object to it's being legal to produce such a book have neatly sidestepped the issue of how you would frame such a law - understandably, as the Supreme Court has enough trouble with the issue of what restrictions you can reasonably put on the exercise of freedom of speech.

    I'm really surprised no one reacted to my comment about how the imagary associated with young women in the media indicates many men in the West are attracted to adolescents.

    I basically think that Western culture is awfully hypocritical over this issue.

    On one page of a newspaper you will find an article about how two 14 year-olds are under criminal charges for being found in bed together.

    On the next you will have a furor over a book seller selling a book that is quite legal to produce.

    And then, in the centre spread, in colour, you will have the latest pout-lipped pubescent pop-starlet thrusting her 32B's cameraward... unless she's on her second album, in which case she'll of had a visit from the silicon fairy.

    We have rightful outrage over child pornography, but the magazines that specialise in portraying 18 year-old models as 'Barely Legal' High School nymphets have massive circulation.

    Is it only me that thinks this is inconsistant and dangerous?

    Obviously the issue is clouded by the term 'paedophile' being applied by many people to anyone finding people under 18 sexually attractive. Technically speaking it applies to an attraction to prepubescents.

    I think, given the fact that many men (and some women) who will rant and rave about how terrible a sexual assault on a preteen is, and who will then spend some time seeing if they can see the 16 year-olds nipples in a photospread, it's important to make a distinction between the two.

    Obviously ALL minors need protection from sexual predators.

    But the teenage minors are getting a very mixed message from our society.

    On one hand they are rightly made aware of the risks of sexual predators. On the other hand, the very attributes that these predators are attracted to are the ones that are used to market produce that those so rightly opposed to sexual predators - and their children - gobble up.

    This is something affecting Western Society as a whole. It's easy to concentrate on the really dangerous people, the sex offenders, but howabout our society giving itself a good look in the mirror?

    Then we have more local problems; teenagers in America being told that abstinance is the best way to handle sex until they are older - and being prevented from really learning anything about sex by people on largely religiously motivated grounds - either that or misconceptions that teaching kids about sex will encourage them to have it. .

    The fact that this not only DOESN'T WORK (research below), but it INCREASES THEIR VULNERABILITY TO SEXUAL PREDATORS is conveniently forgotten in either religious or prudish self-satisfaction that 'children are being protected'.

    American society idolises youthful sexuality whilst denying youths sexuality, it is obsessed about protecting youthful sexuality whilst determined to deny youths knowledge that might protect them.

    We must protect minors from sexual predators.

    But what about protecting kids from the damage our societies screwed-up attitudes towards sex inflicts on hundreds of thousands of young lives? If the USA, for example, had teen pregnancy rates equal to the Netherlands, then there would be 441,000 fewer teen mothers each year, and 215,000 fewer abortions, for a saving to the public pocket of some $921 million. I'm no anti-chiocer, but I certainly think less abortions is better than more abortions!

    Both the USA and Europe both need to look at the portrayal of youth's sexuality in the media; the portrayal conflicts heavily with the attitude many people express.

    The USA needs to realise a lot can be done to protect young people by EDUCATION, as it is this that makes for the shocking differences shown by the linked report that I drew the above figures from;

    http://www.advocatesforyouth.org/publications/factsheet/fsest.htm

    I support a death sentence or life for pedophiles. It is a proven fact 75% or more can't be rehabilitated.

    Come on! For a start, your statement equates sex offender (which is what you mean) with pedophile, making the false assumption that paedophiles are automatically sex offenders. God only knows how many people successfully repress such desires - which means that far more than 25% of people with this sickness can be helped. You are also quite sanguine about killing or imprisoning the 25% (according to your statistics) who can be treated, and would punish an 18 year-old boy who had sex with a 15 year old girl in the same way as a 57 year-old man with a 5 year-old.

    I understand this is an emotive issue. I escaped being groomed by a paedophile when younger, had one try and pick me up when I was 17 (I looked 14), and have a friend who studies it at University (if you have a friend who does this do not read her textbooks unless you want nightmares). I've discussed the issue with her extensively as at one time I was going out with a girl who was sexually abused when younger.

    Just because it is an emotive issue doesn't mean we can fool ourselves that knee-jerk soap-box style declarations that really don't stand up to serious examination are going to solve the problem.

    We have to look at the problem clinically, and at contributing factors, like societal attitudes and ways of protecting children through knowledge, rather than going for 'easy' solutions that are just modern rationalisations of lynchmob logic. And we have to stand together, rather than immediately doubting the PC credentials of anyone who doesn't wave a pitchfork in the air when the mob is getting going.

    That way MORE children will be safer, which is what everyone wants.

  • Abaddon
    Abaddon

    ... og, re. the fiction vs. non-fiction argument; Lolita anyone?

    Best selling book, made into a movie twice... watched by little green men from mars and read by the tooth-fairy I suppose? Is a fictional book told from the protagonist's view any less harmful than a non-fictional book written to support the writer's view?

    If we ban the book on Amazon, we have to ban Lolita as well, and we have to ban major corporations using cute girls under 18 to sell their clothes and records, and maybe even take bits out of movies that even refer to the issue, like Taxi Driver.

    Problems with burning books is the bonfire is always larger than you thought it would be...

  • rem
    rem

    I don't have much time here, but here goes...

    The same is true with Amazon...just because they don't carry a book doesn't violate someone's right to free speech.

    It would be censorship because they would be inconsistent on their stance of making all ideas available (if that is their stance). To arbitrarily decide that a certain book is not fit for public consumption would be opposed to their charter. Such capricious censorship is scary because it could happen to any unfashionable idea that comes along. The heliocentric model used to be unfashionable and the church decided it wasn't fit for public consumption. There is a good reason to make all ideas avaliable - we might actually learn something.

    I don't know why your friend's book is not available on Amazon. It probably doesn't have anything to do with the ideas expressed in it, though.

    The comparison with a newspaper editorial is weak. A newspaper is limited by physical space, so it is expected that only a small sample of letters will be published. Amazon is not limited by space. Their goal is to make as many ideas as possible avialable through their stores. For them to go against their published charter would, indeed, be censorship. Censorship can not only be accomplished through the government. The private sector engages in censorship all the time. The only time it is a problem is when such censorship is arbitrary and capricious. I believe a civil case could be made that a company with such a charter denied freedom of speech. But then again, IANAL.

    I see that CONGRESS shall not ESTABLISH a religion...but I sure as heck don't see SEPERATION of CHURCH and STATE...that was NOT the intention of the framers.

    That is such a laugh. It's quite easy to find out what the framers really thought about religion - especially Christianity. It's also quite apparent in their many correspondences that a "great wall" of separation between church and state was the intention.

    Like it or not, the basis of our laws in this nation were JudeoChristian ethics...The 10 Commandments are part of that ethic.

    No they are not. Our law is based on the pagan principles of the original democracy and republics of the Greeks and Romans. Worshiping the Judeao-Christian god has nothing to do with the laws of our nation. In fact, you will never see the name Jesus in the constitution, the declaration of Independence, or any other framer document. The framers tried the best they could to make sure this was not a Judeo-Christian country.

    Unfortunately I don't have time to continue... gotta run!

    rem

  • Big Tex
    Big Tex
    We have rightful outrage over child pornography, but the magazines that specialise in portraying 18 year-old models as 'Barely Legal' High School nymphets have massive circulation.

    Is it only me that thinks this is inconsistant and dangerous?

    No. I agree as well. It was a point I was trying to make, but I think you make it better.

    But the teenage minors are getting a very mixed message from our society.

    Right now, that is where the battle is being waged, and lost for the very reasons you cite.

    The USA needs to realise a lot can be done to protect young people by EDUCATION, as it is this that makes for the shocking differences shown by the linked report that I drew the above figures from;

    I guess this is the reason I feel as I do about this article and Amazon. Yes we could ban this book, but I think it is, in the long run, healthier and potentially more effective, to shock the average person with the knowledge that this is what these people are about. Knowledge is power.

    God only knows how many people successfully repress such desires - which means that far more than 25% of people with this sickness can be helped. You are also quite sanguine about killing or imprisoning the 25% (according to your statistics) who can be treated, and would punish an 18 year-old boy who had sex with a 15 year old girl in the same way as a 57 year-old man with a 5 year-old.

    Don't know if I can agree with this one, but I understand the point you're making. I don't want to get sidetracked off on ancillary issues, but one characteristic of true pedophilia is the amazing narcisstic and predatory nature of the individual. Realize the the place one must go to mentally to find children sexually attractive. It's dangerous to make broad assertions, but I feel pedophiles are several steps beyond an alcoholic or a drug addict in that while they share the denial of a real and serious problem, pedophiles don't feel there is anything wrong with their desires. Also if a pedophile "falls off the wagon" as it were, look at the potential damage that can be caused versus a drug addict shooting up. But as I say, I don't mean to get bogged down on such a point.

    As I understand it, the definition of pedophilia is the attraction of an adult toward a child, which I would think means a pre-teen (12 and younger). It would be helpful if we could all be on the same page.

    escaped being groomed by a paedophile when younger, had one try and pick me up when I was 17 (I looked 14), and have a friend who studies it at University (if you have a friend who does this do not read her textbooks unless you want nightmares). I've discussed the issue with her extensively as at one time I was going out with a girl who was sexually abused when younger.

    This was confusing to me. What does she study? Whose textbooks? I'm glad you avoided a sexual predator though.

    We have to look at the problem clinically, and at contributing factors, like societal attitudes and ways of protecting children through knowledge, rather than going for 'easy' solutions that are just modern rationalisations of lynchmob logic. And we have to stand together, rather than immediately doubting the PC credentials of anyone who doesn't wave a pitchfork in the air when the mob is getting going.

    Agreed.

  • SanFranciscoJim
    SanFranciscoJim

    Has anyone stopped to think that perhaps the U.S. federal government has encouraged Amazon.com to carry this book so they can keep a list of who is ordering it for their nationwide registry of pedophiles?

    I don't recall seeing a client confidentiality disclaimer anywhere on Amazon.com. Since Amazon is a commercial concern, and not religious or medical in nature, client confidentiality does not apply, and such purchase records should be easily available to any organization/agency who wants it.

    Witch hunt, anyone?

  • Cassiline
    Cassiline

    Cassiline,

    You ignore the fact Amazon did remove two books. I do wonder how many others have been removed on the same and different subjects. So if they censor those 2 books they are NOT supporting free speech whatsoever. If one goes by your argument that Amazon is supporting free speech then its strange as they are picking and choosing what free speech they will allow.

    Yeah, that is sad. But they are a business, and if enough irrational people boycott, what other choice do they have? That's not to say they did it because they agree with the boycotters. Your non-argument is uncompelling.

    My non-argument for what? Your first response that Amazon is supporting “free speech”? Yet, when I reply to show they are not supporting free speech by saying that one is not doing so by picking and choosing what “free speech” they will allow seems simple enough to me that they are not supporting free speech. My point in showing that 2 books were easily found which they did remove, how many more could there be with or without the same content?

    I also feel because I am a survivor and well as my children I may be a little too passionate about the subject.
    Exactly. Your reaction is irrational, though understandably so.

    I don't think reaction was all irrational. I think Big Tex said a lot of things which I respect and said it much better then I.

    Oh, so you wouldn't mind a fictional novel about an older man who likes to stalk young children? This novel would have dialogue from the protaganist that explains why he feels what he is doing is ok and that society just doesn't understand. Would you boycott Amazon if they carried such a book? How is that different than certain murder mysteries? Is pedophillia worse than murder and torture? How so? This sounds like special pleading to me.
    Rem

    You now are changing your argument from a fictional King murder novel to fit your argument. I never said nor did I try to imply I would support your analogy.

    Convicted murderers and such have tried to write novels of their “life works”. I do know there have been several court ruling saying they can’t profit off their crimes by doing so. So by that argument the Supreme Court is also halting “free speech”.

    Abbadon

    Come on! For a start, your statement equates sex offender (which is what you mean) with pedophile, making the false assumption that paedophiles are automatically sex offenders. God only knows how many people successfully repress such desires - which means that far more than 25% of people with this sickness can be helped. You are also quite sanguine about killing or imprisoning the 25% (according to your statistics) who can be treated, and would punish an 18 year-old boy who had sex with a 15 year old girl in the same way as a 57 year-old man with a 5 year-old.

    Sorry about that. I have been losing part of my posts. I do know the difference and I meant or perhaps because my reply was hurried I did forget to say violent sexual predators. The rate of recidivism is high, too high for the serial violent pedophiles. It is at about 75%. I know I had a paragraph in my original post that spoke of counseling for those who could possibly be helped through therapy.

    You are correct it is an emotive subject and I bow out now. As I feel my past is interfering with a well thought out reasoning.

    Cassi

  • Brummie
    Brummie
    You are correct it is an emotive subject and I bow out now. As I feel my past is interfering with a well thought out reasoning.

    Not true Cassi, inspite of your past you give very good reasons for your argument.

    Its simple, they claim to be allowing free speach on this issue and yet surpress free speech by deleting titles from their shelf in other matters. Its all about money. Its their "free world" let em stick it.

    Brummie

  • rem
    rem

    It's a non-argument because they removed those particular titles under duress. Think about it.

    rem

  • No Apologies
    No Apologies

    Rem, what planet are you from?

    It would be censorship because they would be inconsistent on their stance of making all ideas available (if that is their stance).

    Amazon does not have a stance or charter that involves making all ideas available. Amazon is a business, comprende? Their charter or mission, is to make money, no more, no less.

    In this case they have made the conscious decision to distribute - and profit from - a publication that advocates and attempts to justify behavior that is morally reprehensible to 99.9999% of the general public, and is generally illegal in most parts of the world. Many people here( and elsewhere, I am sure) are outraged by this decision. When corporations make decisions like this, they often-times will have to face consequences like this: angry customers, boycotts, negative pr, etc. This is why most companies claim to have ethics or standards that they attempt to abide by. It is not a perfect system, but it is better than nothing.

    Why do you have a problem with this? And don't start with the noble "ideas want to be free" or "slippery slope" type arguments. There is no government-mandated censorship issue here, this is no lofty "diversity of opinions" battle. Its a big company making a bone-head business decision.

  • Big Tex
    Big Tex
    You are correct it is an emotive subject and I bow out now. As I feel my past is interfering with a well thought out reasoning.

    On the contrary. Your past gives resonance and depth to your words. If others won't see that fact, that says more about them than you.

    We all bring something to the table, and what you bring is something very precious and needed.

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