JWs anti gay video reaches over 1,000,000 views on youtube (page 6)

cofty

But you seem to have shifted a bit to: - Wizzstick

No my first statement was a figure of speech. I would be opposed to any attempts to use the law to limit what people can believe - and of course their right to state their beliefs.

I was simply pointing out that the JW attitude to gay relationships are just one example of a harmful religious dogma. If the law was going to be used there would be implications for the basic beliefs of all religions.

If the teaching of hellfire to children warrants the 'limiting the rights of religion to state their beliefs'

It doesn't. Just to be clear - the law should not be used to limit people's right to hold and state stupid ideas.

wizzstick

the law should not be used to limit people's right to hold and state stupid ideas.

And that is where I would add on the point about being harmful.

If a person states a stupid statement that causes harm then yes it should be stopped.

Calling an asian person a 'Paki' is both stupid and harmful. It will cause distress and a lot of hurt. I absolutely believe that whilst people can hold whatever stupid ideas they want, there are limits to what they can state.

This would apply to racist terms such as the one above.

Whilst people can hold whatever stupid ideas they want over gay people, there are limits to what they can state. And that includes the nonsensical and harmful idea that 'gays can change'.

cofty

If a person hold and states a stupid statement that causes harm then yes it should be stopped. - Wizzstick

I am convinced that the christian gospel is psychologically harmful.

Should christianity be banned?

I am even more convinced that everything about Islam is harmful. Should that be stopped too?

Calling an asian person a 'Paki' is both stupid and harmful.

Personal abuse has nothing to do with this issue.

Whilst people can hold whatever stupid ideas they want over gay people, there are limits to what they can state. And that includes the nonsensical and harmful idea that 'gays can change'.

So should we make it illegal for somebody to state that they believe homosexualty is a choice? What if a gay man says his gay relationship is a choice? Should he be charged with a hate crime too?

What if somebody publicly denies anthropomorphic climate change? Should they be hauled before the magistrate too? What about anti-vaxxers? Their stupidity can be measured in child deaths? Shall we lock them up for expressing their ignorance in public?

This is the road to an Orwellian dystopia.

wizzstick

Personal abuse has nothing to do with this issue.

So personal abuse does limit freedom of speech?

I am convinced that the christian gospel is psychologically harmful.

What all of it? Every single element? Every doctrine?

Is there not a difference between statements/doctrines that aren't harmful (God is three persons in one) and statements that are harmful (Gays can change).

One has almost no possibility of being harmful.

The other does.

This is why that video has so may dislikes.

You seem to be taking an all or nothing approach. I would suggest that's pretty extreme. If a statement of belief is harmful (Gays can change) then yes if should be banned.

Think whatever you want - but that doesn't mean you're free to state it. That applies to religious statements as much as racist statements.

cofty

So personal abuse does limit freedom of speech? - Wizzstick

If you go up to somebody in the street and start shouting and swearing at them and calling them obscene names you should expect to be arrested. That has nothing to do with limiting your freedom of speech.

I am convinced that the christian gospel is psychologically harmful. - Me

What all of it? Every single element? Every doctrine? - You

No. The gospel begins with the assertion that everybody is a broken sinner whose best works are nothing but filthy rags and if you don't believe that you are going to hell for all eternity. That is psychologically harmful.

This is why that video has so may dislikes.

I dislike the video intensely. Of course it has potential to do harm. I don't want it banned.

You seem to be taking an all or nothing approach. I would suggest that's pretty extreme. If a statement of belief is harmful (Gays can change) then yes if should be banned.

So we all need to live in a safe world where anything you think might do harm cannot be spoken. Let's call it 1984.

Why did you ignore all my other examples?

What if a gay man says his gay relationship is a choice? Should he be charged with a hate crime too?

What if somebody publicly denies anthropomorphic climate change? Should they be hauled before the magistrate too?

What about anti-vaxxers? Their stupidity can be measured in child deaths. Shall we lock them up for expressing their ignorance in public?

Think whatever you want - but that doesn't mean you're free to state it.

Yes of course you are free to state it. Freedom of speech has no relevance to saying things that are popular.

wizzstick

This is the biggest hole in your argument:

If you go up to somebody in the street and start shouting and swearing at them and calling them obscene names you should expect to be arrested. That has nothing to do with limiting your freedom of speech.

Racists would (and have) said that they can do this as under freedom of speech. "Sticks and stones may break my bones but names will never hurt me" and all that nonsense.

They are of course utterly wrong. Calling people names doesn't kill them, but is does cause psychological harm and that is why we won't permit this.

cofty

Racists would (and have) said that they can do this as under freedom of speech.

Then they are imbeciles.

This has absolutely nothing at all to do with the conversation about the rights of religions to hold and express bad ideas. Including harmful ones.

You are clutching at straws and ignoring my arguments.

What if a gay man says his gay relationship is a choice? Should he be charged with a hate crime too?

What if somebody publicly denies anthropomorphic climate change? Should they be hauled before the magistrate too?

What about anti-vaxxers? Their stupidity can be measured in child deaths. Shall we lock them up for expressing their ignorance in public?

Island Man

It should be illegal for any group to teach implicitly or explicitly that a specific segment of society are deserving of death by virtue of their nature or their actions, unless it can be demonstrated that that segment's actions causes the deaths of others with overwhelming consistency.

It may be sugar-coated, but JWs are teaching that gay people are deserving of death and will be killed by God. The nature and actions of gay people do not cause the deaths of persons with overwhelming consistency, thus the JW teachings is disproportionately discriminatory and fosters negative attitudes toward that segment of society - attitudes which can serve as a motive for some to commit hate crimes against homosexuals.

Freedom of religion and freedom of speech stops at the point where religions single out innocent segments of society and paint shooting targets on them. Make no mistake about it, there are three essentials to every crime: motive, means and opportunity. JWs contribute to creating the motive that inspires homophobic hate crimes.

Island Man

What about anti-vaxxers? Their stupidity can be measured in child deaths. Shall we lock them up for expressing their ignorance in public?

YES! Given that vaccination saves lives and given that lack of vaccination results in preventable deaths, anyone who publicly advocates against vaccination should prove their case empirically or face prison time for reckless endangerment of the public.

When people are publicly sharing ideas that can cause actual harm and even the death of others, then that should be a crime punishable with imprisonment. There's nothing wrong with criticising policies or claims. But when criticism is provable false and provably harmful, that is - should be - a crime. I see it as being just as bad as a man who falsely shouts "fire!" in a crowded theatre, igniting a stampede that results in the trampling deaths of many.

Zoos

JWs contribute to creating the motive that inspires homophobic hate crimes.

All of Christianity does.

JWs anti gay video reaches over 1,000,000 views on youtube

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