TV TRAILER: ‘Leah Remini: Scientology and the Aftermath: The Jehovah’s Witnesses' Two Hour Special Event - A&E

by MaybeSo 61 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Simon

    But if that number is "lives saved because of blood" and they refuse the blood, doesn't that mean they should be deaths?

    The fact that there is this discrepancy demonstrates that the reasoning and use of numbers doesn't fully make sense because the claims contradict themselves.

    If I can point to the discrepancy, then anyone else can too. I'm not doing this to try and rubbish the claim, I'm trying to make sure that we don't make wild claims that can't be substantiated.

    This started with "JWs are worse and more dangerous than the Jonestown massacre cult!" and if that is being claimed, it needs to be backed up otherwise everything else being claimed becomes questionable as to it's accuracy.

    The medical industry will claim "lives saved by a procedure" but that doesn't mean "lives lost without that procedure" which I think is the incorrect assumption you're making.

  • OrphanCrow

    I am not sure what you are saying, Simon.

    However, I do know that the "evidence" that you need likely will never happen.

    A couple years ago, I invested a great deal of time into trying to establish that evidence that so many people are skeptical of. I spent weeks extrapolating 70 years of data from the Canadian census and the JW yearbooks to break down age estimates in order to use those figures for a statistical analysis of blood deaths in the JW population.

    I was working with a statistician from the university who was the department head of the math department. Everything was going really well and all we had to do was wait for original data from several medical studies that had been published that showed the higher risk that JWs face when they refuse a blood transfusion. And that is when we ran into a problem. None of the researchers that Dr. V had contacted asking for original data had answered him. No answer from any of them - they totally ignored his attempts to get the data. Dr. V said that it was the first and only time that had happened to him.

    And that is why I doubt that an accurate estimate can ever be done: The medical establishment will not release the original data on JWs. They circle the wagons.

    And my death estimate project was dead in the water.

  • Simon
    I am not sure what you are saying, Simon

    I've tried to explain it already but I'll try again ...

    If we can't get hard evidence of the numbers, the least we should do is come up with claims that can be reasonably defended. If it's easy to make the numbers given look so questionable and other claims are based on those numbers then the whole thing collapses and it isn't even difficult to do.

    So, IMO, we need to do a better job of fact-checking ourselves and not make crazy claims. The JWs are nowhere near as bad as the Jonestown massacre cult where close to 100% of the members died and outside investigators were murdered. Making the claim that they are just makes us look crazy and desperate - we're better off putting JWs where they truly belong on the cult spectrum and then attacking them for the wrongs they actually do.

    This is what I mean by people "over-egging the pudding"

  • _Morpheus
    I have seen the other argument of him and how he can come off as narcissistic, or how he insulted Kim and Mikey, there’s an entire grocery list of things he’s done that’s stirred things up in the community and has people like Morpheus so angry at him because he (not directly) plagiarized a leak of the 2018 annual meeting from Gorby.

    Saturn, its interesting that you try impose an emotion on comments re llyod. Perhaps thats your emotion at reading my remarks. I have no particular feeling on llyod beyond what i have stated. Hes unfit, for the long list of substantial reasons i laid out, to represent the “ex jw” community.

    And he most certainly plagiarized gorby’s post. Word for word. He reported it, word for word, as fact. Gorby made it up out of whole cloth as a joke. He reported it, without citing the source, as facts he knew were true. The problem was, it was all made up. In one place. Gorby’s post. That is, by definition, plagiarism. Not indirectly, not sort of, not kinda... its flat out text book plagiarism. I dont hate him for it, i think its laugh out loud funny he got caught. It also makes him untrust worthy.

    Of course that was three weeks ago so its all forgiven 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

  • OrphanCrow
    Simon: The JWs are nowhere near as bad as the Jonestown massacre cult where close to 100% of the members died and outside investigators were murdered.

    You are right. 100% of JWs don't face the blood death sacrifice. Only some of them do.

    Instead of all the JWs dying for lack of blood....only some are called to the altar of blood.

  • MaybeSo

    Not a big fan of Evans.

    I do have to say I'm glad there will be a panel so different personalities are shown. I also hope they understand the weight that has been placed on their shoulders. I don't expect a massive "Exoddus" -see what I did there- of JWs leaving the Borg. I do hope it brings attention to thr destructive practices such as the 2 witness rule and the blood doctrine among many others.

    Of course, the fat guys upstairs will use it to keep their mind control over the millions of JWs stuck in the cult.

  • steve2

    Morpheus, some of your wording is incorrect. Lloyd did not plagiarise Gorby. His co-panelist (whose name eludes me - John Redwood??) cited an unnamed source which turned out to be Gorby. No one on the panel that featured in Lloyd’s video claimed to be the researcher or author of the information that they unknowingly quoted as factual ( but as we know, was a pretty good satire). Gorby had put his information ( satire) in the public domain so no one can claim the information had been embargoed or stolen.

    When informed the information was satire at an early stage after his video was released, Lloyd added a clear correction to the video and stated explicitly he would edit out their references to the information.

    None of that constitutes plagiarism, by definition. There appear to be many things that I am prepared to acknowledge are understandable complaints about some of Lloyd’s behaviour and tendencies. But “plagiarism”is not one of them.

  • _Morpheus
    1. the practice of taking someone else's work or ideas and passing them off as one's own.”

      He (llyod) took someone elses work (the satire written by gorby) and passed it off as his (llyod) own

    1. Simon

      It wasn't so much plagiarism as a demonstration that they don't put enough effort into verifying things and are too eager to repeat a story if it suits their agenda. They are not objectively reporting things - I think criticism is stronger and more powerful if you are fair. Not everything the WTS is wrong or bad and if we can't admit or acknowledge that, we just become the caricature apostate haters that the WTS predicts.

    2. galaxie

      Yeah lets start a list of the good things the wts does, who's goin'first ?

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