by _Morpheus 138 Replies latest members private
To say that WT has no control over people is technically true, but not true in a real world sense.
They will destroy your family relationships if you publicly disagree with them; that seems like some control to me.
They can't make me do anything, but they can make my life miserable if they decide I am persona non grata.
To say that WT has no control over people is technically true, but not true in a real world sense.
They have no real control. They have influence (to the exact amount that people grant them).
They will destroy your family relationships if you publicly disagree with them; that seems like some control to me.
Again, do they do it? Really? Or do the family members chose to put their beliefs ahead of their relationships? So who actually does it?
They can't make me do anything, but they can make my life miserable if they decide I am persona non grata.
Exactly. They have no control over you and I'm just saying they have no real control over anyone, they just have influence because those people chose to grant them that influence.
Yes, it sucks, because they influence people we may care about to do things that we don't like just as other people may influence them in ways we don't like - maybe they hang out with, date or marry someone we think is a bad influence. But that isn't the same as control.
That one too. But the family that was moving round the country 3 times per year that had 2 suicides. It's really tragic, but I don't think it's exactly typical of most JWs experience - the family seemed a little extreme in their behavior (the parents) and there wasn't a clear direct link to the WTS as the cause of the suicides that I could see as they happened after people left and making a link between boxing (was it?) would be just as valid. I just found the story came out in pieces and wasn't quite clear.
yea i can agree with that one as well. Ive known families who moved where the need was greater at the sacrifice of their childrens stablity but two ir three times a year over the course of some years isnt something ive seen. I also wish we had heard a little more from that family and gotten some details but time is an issue. The account where the sister was forced to move out overnight... happens all too often.
All the experiences obviously have to be compelling and 'sensational' in a way to compete with the Scientologist experiences that they show has focused on. I'm not sure the WTS is really "Scientology with 8 million members" as they tried to claim.
maybe a bit extreme but not far fetched. Not all scientologists are couch jumping actors, but the experiance of scientologists and jw’s, accross the spectrum, is remarkably similar.
I bet you can find Roman Catholic families that are extreme in their behavior, strictness and worship but it would be equally unrepresentative of the typical follower.
On that i disagree. Most of what was spoken about was pretty typical. Jw life is all consuming and they showed that with a high degree of fairness, outside what ive mentioned as unusual.
It probably didn't help that between segments there were ad trailers for another programme about some other cult that looked really up there in the bat-shit-crazy stakes.
That bothered me as well. The first time i was fooled for a second into thinking it was a part of the program. A&E has to advertise but that was little... weird.
Again, I'm not saying the programme was bad or the stories weren't true, compelling or heart-breaking, but I think we need to be balanced in apportioning blame for what are sometimes family issues and people need to take personal responsibility for their part in it.
and thats where you and i always tend to agree. Im never a fan of the sensational or blaming the org for everything including your aunts gout, and i was watching for that in this program. I didnt see a lot of it, really much to mention at all. Especially on the education, df’ing and blood issues, it was spot on. It was the best exposè ive seen done.
Simon: There is no "unless" that the WTS has - they do no kidnap and kill people. You walk out the door and never go back and you're done.
Yes, they do "kidnap" people. It is called "hostage taking" - a term that is used in psychological circles to describe how abusers take control of their victims.
Your analysis of it is simplistic to the extreme and unrealistic. You appear to be resistant to the psychological dynamics at play in an abuser/victim relationship.
And I haven't even got into the Stockholm syndrome effect.
This argument that the WTS controls people's lives
Yes it does control people lives. And it isn't an argument. It is a fact.
Cults control people. Accept that.
The rest of your response is exactly the place where it would be ideal to get people to - the ability to walk away and never return. Well...that is a good topic for another thread and one that maybe you can bundle up as a suggestion and send off to the producers of this introductory episode on the JW cult.
In the meantime, I don't think that your strategy is a sound one for those still inside this tightly controlled cult or for those who are trying desperately to extract themselves from this harmful cult's tentacles.
I am afraid that your response reminds me of the all too familiar refrain of "well, she could of left at any time. I don't know why she didn't leave the bastard before he killed her"
People will do anything and want to fit in, be accepted and are desperately seeking self-importance and status - control others (people love to boss) most important criteria plus in the evil cult they win everlasting life while all the other losers of the world are clueless and wiped out. They become brainwashed by idiots and will sacrifice anything for prominence and power -- power being the most important aspect and aphrodisiac even over wealth. Most don't care or love themselves much less their children. Thus the cult's easy power play.
Especially on the education, df’ing and blood issues, it was spot on. It was the best exposè ive seen done.
I agree. I think there is enough to nail the WTS to a stake for without having to over-reach on certain claims.
Yes it does control people lives. And it isn't an argument. It is a fact.
Cults control people. Accept that.
Sorry, but I don't find "you must believe this" arguments compelling.
Yes, cults and other groups influence people but true 'control' is an extreme that needs to be reserved for the real extreme cults.
I don't think that your strategy is a sound one for those still inside this tightly controlled cult or for those who are trying desperately to extract themselves from this harmful cult's tentacles.
My strategy which is "just stop going"? Why doesn't that work? What is your plan? Keep going?
You know what happens when you stop going to meetings and tell them to stop calling?
nothing
maybe you can bundle up as a suggestion and send off to the producers of this introductory episode on the JW cult.
They wouldn't do a programme on that reality because it would be pretty boring: "so, when you stopped going, what happened then? Did a kidnap squad arrive to drag you back?"
They have no real control. They have influence (to the exact amount that people grant them).
True. The only power/control that the WTS has is what people allow them to have. But - the problem is that people do let them have that control. People make life decisions based on the control - or influence, if you prefer - that the leadership of the religion exerts on them.
And for those of us on the outside now, even though we don't accept their authority, their control over our family members influences us to a degree. We are shunned. We are mistreated. We suffer as a result of no longer accepting that influence/control.
I can't speak as to the people who were on the show, as I have not watched it yet. It may very well be that some were extreme examples, but watching JWs from the outside for over a decade now, and after having been one for over 30 years, I can attest to the fact that this religion causes people to make extreme decisions.
Would a normal parent allow their child to die on an operating table when a simple blood transfusion can probably save their life? No. But a JW parent will. That's one example of extremism that is common in this cult religion.
I watched the A&E Jehovah's witnesses special last night...on a scale of 1 to 10...a whopping 10+!
Me thinks WT headquarter's elite this morning are scrambling around wondering if the organization should make some sort of official rebuttal to this A&E show. Funny thing is...the Governing Body typically meet together every Wednesday to discuss the most pressing topics affecting the org. Guess what...today is that Wednesday! What likely is on the GB menu today for discussion...Damage Control...Yay!
A must see A&E episode for sure!!
It probably didn't help that between segments there were ad trailers for another programme about some other cult that looked really up there in the bat-shit-crazy stakes.
That bothered me as well. The first time i was fooled for a second into thinking it was a part of the program. A&E has to advertise but that was little... weird.
Me too.
I got confused a few times. There was little to no transition in places between the ads for the nutso devil cults and the JW programming. A couple times I thought the show as still airing. Especially when they were speaking about not celebrating holidays and it was followed with an ad for Christmas decorations!
The other editing issue I had was the way that the quotes from WT publications were presented. They were silent and I often almost missed them if I got up to grab a coffee or something. Small printing and hard to read - not enough time to really digest what the quote said.
Simon: You know what happens when you stop going to meetings and tell them to stop calling?
nothing
Bullshit. It is not nothing.
What happens is exactly what all those people on the panel were talking about.
Personal suffering. Families broken up. Suicides. Survivors of sexual abuse.
On and on.
What they were talking about is not nothing.
And what else are the people who walk out and stop going to meetings left with?
Fear. Loads and loads of fear.
Fear of Armageddon. Fear of not being resurrected. Fear of final death.
Fear of no Paradise.
Nothing?
I think not.
They are left with a whole lot of shit to deal with
