why jw's commit suicide? (page 9)

jp1692

Ruby: mental health includes such things as anxiety, self esteem and aggression and these are the things that are measured in social science and psychiatry to indicate mental illness. do you agree?

Mostly.

Ruby: such things would affect participation - do you agree?

Yes. Mentally ill people are often MORE active in a religion or other type of cult. They are frequently the most zealous of the zealots as they try to prove their level of devotion and commitment.

Ruby: such things as anxiety, lack of self esteem and aggression would be indicators to other members of the group of the level of commitment, love for others and love for god etc. Do you agree?

No. I do not at all agree with this. I think your conclusion here is completely non sequitur. Both my research and personal experience provide ample evidence to the contrary in a wide variety of cult and cult-like settings, JW and otherwise.

jp1692

@Ruby, I am reposting this because you have not responded and or addressed this:

Ruby: people with mental health issues are treated like free riders and are given a hard time because they cannot keep up and indeed Scott Atran 2002 who cites Iannaccone's paper argues that because such religions have no place for those who cannot perform to their demandingly strict standards they leave and this is why there are high turnover rates amongst such religions.

Also, I did a keyword search of the Iannaccone paper you referenced using the terms: mental and health. Neither of those words appear once in that paper. Could you please provide a specific quote with a proper citation to support your claims?

Thanks!

JP

Ruby456

Re Aran,s book - Good for you. I,m not a great fan of cognitive psychology but do take on board what they say. Eileen Barker also offers helpful insights if you want to test what some of the more far out claims and extreme views and criticisms are.

Ruby456

Ruby: mental health includes such things as anxiety, self esteem and aggression and these are the things that are measured in social science and psychiatry to indicate mental illness. do you agree?
Mostly.
Ruby: such things would affect participation - do you agree?
Yes. Mentally ill people are often MORE active in a religion or other type of cult. They are frequently the most zealous of the zealots as they try to prove their level of devotion and commitment.

the experiences of posters in this thread say otherwise - my evidence is mostly based on what they say so pls have a look for yourself. it was their comments that prompted me to dig out the Iannaconne article. Fanatical people may also display the kind of conviction you describe and Iannaccone does corroborate this but fanaticism is not mental illness as in other setting it can be described as conviction and comittment and mental rigour - indeed the ability to see something through to the minutest detail - such traits are highly valued in many disciplines - the A type personality married to his/her work. Indeed it is highly intelligent comitted people who display such traits

Atran actually touches on the differences between religious experiences and pathologies in chapter six.

Ruby456

as for my argument being non sequitur - you will need to explain. pls be warned I am not a fan of propositional knowledge

jp1692

Ruby: as for my argument being non sequitur - you will need to explain.

It does not follow that suffering from anxiety, lacking self esteem or being aggressive would in any way indicate a person's level of commitment to a group, their love for others or their love for god.

I fail to see any kind of correlation between any of the first three items on your list and the last three, let alone any hint of a causal relationship.

Ruby456

indeed there isn't but at the KH there is as posters here testify from their own experiences.

btw I have been trying to reply to your private message but my replies disapear when I return to my computer.

jp1692

And anecdotal evidence need not be ignored, but it must be recognized for what it is with all of its limitations including the possibility that we read into it conclusions that aren't warranted and which are frequently skewed by our own biases.

Ruby456

I would call it phenomenological evidence rather than anecdotal and while posters are making their arguments to support why they conclude that suicide is high among Jehovah's witnesses I am using their evidence to draw attention to a different conclusion that Jehovahs witnesses as a religion use rational choice to generate competition by means of generating optimal levels of strictness that only a few can attain - those whose health can stand the strain. The ones whose health breaks down are considered spiritually weak or lazy or ignored because they are considered negative and discouraging.

Is drawing a different conclusion (one that fits additional evidence much better) expressing bias to you?

ShirleyW

Ruby - don't really feel like going back and reading all 9 pages of posts here, but if I'm correct your first post here was after my comment, so let me ask, are you a Psychiatrist or any other position related to it?

why jw's commit suicide?

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