why jw's commit suicide?
Ruby: Atran was investigating how people with mental health problems fare amongst groups like Jehovhas witnesses ... Atran concluded that Jehovahs witnesses are no help to those with mental illnesses whereas mainstream religions do help with depression and well being.
Do you have a specific quote including page number to support this? Also, it would be helpful if you supplied a complete citation, or at least a link, to the source for your comments. That way, people that are interested in researching this further (me in this case) can actually find and consult the source document.
Ruby: people with mental health issues are treated like free riders and are given a hard time because they cannot keep up and indeed Scott Atran 2002 who cites Iannaccone's paper argues that because such religions have no place for those who cannot perform to their demandingly strict standards they leave and this is why there are high turnover rates amongst such religions.
Also, I did a keyword search of the Iannaccone paper you referenced using the terms: mental and health. Neither of those words appear once in that paper. Could you please provide a specific quote with a proper citation to support your claims? If you cannot or will not do that please refrain from making unfounded, unsupported assertions which only obfuscate informed discussion about this very serious issue.
Ruby: I think I would have to disagree with your last two sentences too as they come across as rather fundamentalist. A disciplined environment has been found to work very well for reocvoring drug addicts and so long as they remain within those confines they do very well. there are other groups as will that do with better in more disciplined environments - at school for example.
WTF? Here are my "last two sentences":
- Too little strictness never leads to tragedies such as Jonestown. Fundamentalist extremism of all sorts are malignant cancers of the soul and psyche.
How is either of these sentences "fundamentalist"? And what do you even mean by that?
In my last sentence, I explicitly comment on my conclusions about "Fundamentalist extremism" and its effects on individuals. It is not an ideological statement of belief.
The first of the two sentences is addressing Iannoccone's "that too much strictness causes just as much harm as too little" with which I disagree.
Finally, your comments about "a disciplined environment" and its benefits are true, but have nothing to do with fundamentalist extremism. You completely changed the subject. I think you are confusing discipline with fundamentalism and extremist ideologies. They are not the same, not at all.
Ruby456 - "Atran concluded that Jehovahs witnesses are no help to those with mental illnesses..."
Gosh, never saw that one coming.
Gives Tightpants Tony's "apostates are mentally diseased" an ironic new spin, though.
"A study of unsuccessful sects is needed to test the theory's prediction that too much strictness causes just as much harm as too little."
I predict that a study of unsuccessful sex will come to a remarkably similar conclusion.
ip1692 here you go sweetie - from previous pages (p. 4 actually) and pls also see how other posters here corroborate Iannaccone's research. do you need me to collect them all together too or can u do that for yourself?
If you have mental health issues then it is best to stay away from witnesses. Studies indicate that most people do even if they begin to associate with them they do not stay very long even if they get baptized. Suicide is very preventable but the thing to do is to seek help and definitely don't turn to alcohol or drugs as these worsen the feelings and mood.
Apart from the above the fact is that Jehovah's witnesses are a high cost, high commitment, high participation-requiring religion and those who are suffering to such an extent that they cannot participate fully or as expected of them are usually sidelined (exactly as the experiences here suggest) and such ones leave as they feel unpopular and unwanted. Here is a study that makes such points and the inference from this is that there is less depression and less suicide among Jehovah's witnesses than in the general population for the reasons that I have already mentioned above. but this is not to recommend them but to indicate that individuals seeking any kind of psychological support will not receive it at the KH. Better to seek help that works.
I shall argue that strict demands "strengthen" a church in three ways: they raise overall levels of commitment, they increase average rates of participation, and they enhance the net benefits of membership. These strengths arise because strictness mitigates free-rider problems that otherwise lead to low levels of member commitment and participation. Free riders threaten most collective activities, and religious activities are no exception. Church members may attend services, call upon the pastor for counsel, enjoy the fellowship of their peers, and so forth, without ever putting a dollar in the plate or bringing a dish to the potluck. Direct monitoring (of attendance, contributions, and other overt behaviors) fails to solve the problem because it tends to undermine critical group attributes such as commitment, enthusiasm, and solidarity. But seemingly unproductive costs provide an indirect solution. These costs screen out people whose participation would otherwise be low, while at the same time they increase participation among those who do join
mental health includes such things as anxiety, self esteem and aggression and these are the things that are measured in social science and psychiatry to indicate mental illness. do you agree?
such things would affect participation - do you agree?
as well such things as anxiety, lack of self esteem and aggression would be indicators to other members of the group of the level of commitment, love for others and love for god etc. Do you agree?
if you do not agree then please see comments on page 1 of this thread regarding how performance related and judgmental Jehovah's witnesses are. they tend to avoid those who are anxious, hold back due to lack of self esteem and of course those who are aggressive. suicide is the most aggressive act one can do to oneself and pls see jwfact's comment on page 1 too. pls see the samaritans web page or seek help if you are feeling like this - suicide is preventable according to the Samaritans.
for Atran see chapter 6 Ritual and Revelation - the Emotional Mind of In God's we trust: the evolutionary landscape of religion
“Pete Zahut”: “Telling children that the world is going to end in destruction is a form of child abuse, . . .”
Boy, I can relate to that! My dad has scared me about sinning against the holy spirit (thus my user name) since I was about eight years old. My dad would keep telling me: “Wait until Armageddon. Then you’ll really be shaking in your boots!”
Between that and those disgustingly horrible sketches in the big old orange-coloured book “From Paradise Lost to Paradise Regained” depicting even little children and their pet cats falling into scary-looking abysses opening up in the earth, I can certainly now see how that is the worst kind of child abuse, or soul raping, of those most vulnerable. Disgusting, indeed!
the problem is that studies show that people in "cults" and new religious movements are generally psychologically healthy. Plus they score at least 11 points higher than average populations do. saying this to reassure those who have relatives in and to say that the situation is more complex than associating the pics in the books and threats of armageddon as child abuse ...
for some people it is psychologically harmful and the hope is that such ones leave. those who do leave generally say they feel wiser for the experience of having been part of an NRM "cult".
edit: mind you the gov is and will be asking the psychologically well and the intelligent (and not so intelligent like me) to provide financial support and care for their elderly parents and for themselves in their old age so pls get busy with your training, education and search for well paying jobs.
Ruby: for Atran see chapter 6 Ritual and Revelation - the Emotional Mind of In God's we trust: the evolutionary landscape of religion
Thanks. I looked this book up on line and actually ordered it because it looked very interesting. It should arrive sometime today.