I'll give you an example that happened some years ago, when bloodless surgery was in it infancy. There was a witness who got in touch with a leading U.S surgon in this field. He offered to come and give a talk in this country provided he had his air fair and expenses paid for. It would of been a bargain, and of huge benefit for the R&F in understanding bloodless procedures at the time. This brother went out and tried to let the word out about the offer this surgon made, to come out here. Wt got wind of it, and sent out a letter nation wide telling the people organising the event to desist in doing so. So that was the end of that. I would of loved to of known what the surgon thought about it.
How Knowledge is Dissipated in Talks
by Cold Steel 66 Replies latest watchtower bible
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Diogenesister
Joe123cd This brother went out and tried to let the word out about the offer this surgon made, to come out here. Wt got wind of it, and sent out a letter nation wide telling the people organising the event to desist in doing so. So that was the end of that. I would of loved to of known what the surgon thought about it.
Geoffrey Jackson claimed it would be "presumptuous to think they (the GB)were the *only* channel of communication God was using". Meaning, of course, that *other JWs* MAY have holy spirit guiding them when they go about representing the Org doing Witnessy things etc
Yet they put the kibosh on excellent ideas that would benefit dubs BUT don't come from them ;just like jealous children who don't want to play a game if it's not their idea. Unbelievable but oh-so predictable.
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stillin
There was a campaign years ago to try and get the "blood booklet" into the hands of local doctors. As an MS, I volunteered to work on this. I was raised in a medical family and, frankly, more presentable than any of the local elders. But this, too, was swept aside.
I really think that there is jealousy towards the better-educated. Combine that with the authority to hog whatever "privileges" and you have a recipe for a hole-in-a-wall religion. A backward, ignorant, small-minded collection of people who feed on each other rather than knowledge.
Another thing that gets me is when there is a letter to be read, or a segment of the Bible.One of the congregation's "best teachers," an elder, steps up to the mike and you realize that he has not got a clue what he is reading. He's just punching away at each word, proud to get the three-syllable ones correct, and without any idea what the "drift" of the reading is.
These are the ones who disseminate knowledge! Thank you, Lord!
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Steel
I find jws generally scatter like cockroaches when faced with any type of theological discussion, so the best defence against the cults is just have a bible for dummies level of knowledge about Christianity.
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Cold Steel
Cofty » If anybody wants to know the reality about the Watchtower they need to talk to ex-JWs. If anybody wants to know the truth about Mormonism they need to talk to ex-Mormons.
You believe that...really?
You actually believe that if one wishes to know the reality of atheism, one needs to talk to ex-atheists? That if one wants to know the truth about Darwinism, they need to talk to ex-Darwinists? That's a unique and disturbing methodology, Cofty, and I'm amazed you would espouse it. I have visited such sites, and I'm amazed you would find them a viable path to truth.
As a Latter-day Saint, I look at the background and scholastical degrees of our proponents, in and out of the church. Noted archeologists, geologists, anthropologists, historians, doctorates in ancient scripture, early Christianity and even in Islamic Studies, while many of our ex-Mormon websites, according to one of our “cult apologists” consists of (and I agree) “displays of bravado, strutting, believers’ arguments completely misunderstood and misrepresented, bold challenges hurled out to those who are barred from responding, and guffaws of triumph over enemies who are not permitted to reply. Dissent is rigidly excluded...even as its denizens criticize the Church for its supposed ‘repressiveness.’”
One of the ones you mentioned, says our apologist (Dr Daniel C. Peterson, and I agree), “is rife with personal abuse and bloodcurdling hostility, not uncommonly obscene, directed against people they don’t know and haven’t even met – against President Hinckley, Joseph Smith, the Brethren, the general membership of the Church, and even, somewhat obsessively, against [myself].
“Ordinary members of the Church – Morgbots or Morons or Sheeple, in the jargon of the board – are routinely stereotyped as insane, tyrannical, cheap, bigoted, ill-mannered, irrational, sexually repressed, stupid, greedy, foolish, rude, poor tippers, sick, brain-dead, and uncultured. There was once even a thread – and I’m not making this up – devoted to discussing how Mormons noisily slurp their soup in restaurants. Posts frequently lament the stupidity and gullibility of Church leaders, neighbors, parents, spouses, siblings, and even offspring – who may be wholly unaware of the anonymous poster’s secret double life of contemptuous disbelief.”
I, myself, tried defending the church once or twice on two of these sites in 2006, and found myself barred from posting. Fortunately that doesn't happen here and active JWs are actually encouraged to defend their beliefs on this board if they can. But do you truly think I needed to land here to discover the truth about “The Truth”? No. I originally came here hoping to talk to believers -- people willing to answer questions about their beliefs. But then I began reading their stories and I decided to stick around because I found them fascinating and others even heat rending.
So use whatever methodology suits you to arrive at what you think is the truth. I've got the time and patience to wait and see who's right.
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cofty
You actually believe that if one wishes to know the reality of atheism, one needs to talk to ex-atheists?
How many times does it have to be explained to you that atheism isn't a thing? I have almost nothing in common with 99% of atheists apart from the simple fact that we are not impressed by the claims of theism.
Also "Darwinism" isn't a thing. Evolution is just a fact. Accept it or don't accept it. There is no club to join.
Thousands of ex-Mormons all relate similar stories of cultish manipulation.
To anybody not infected with the Mormon mind-virus your cultishness is self-apparent.
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joe134cd
I can totally relate to what cold steel is saying as I myself am a poster on ex-mo boards as well. It wasn't until I walked out of the hall that I started investigating TSCC (in JW speak TTATT) and found them to be surprisingly similar. I have found X-mo forums a huge help in understanding my JW experience, and I could see it as been nothing but a good thing if there was more cross over between the 2 movements. Welcome to you cold steel and I always enjoy reading your posts.
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cofty
joe - Cold Steel is pro-mormon and has nothing but contempt for those who post on ex-mormon forums.
Your post seems self-contradictory.
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Cold Steel
Cofty » Thousands of ex-Mormons all relate similar stories of cultish manipulation.
Thousands, eh? And you've waded through these thousands of poor ex-Mormons and have concluded they're all victims of a cultist religion? I'm impressed by the time and study you've put in on it, and your dedication to studying both sides and you're ability to ferret out the truth no matter where it resides.
Latter-day Saints believe that marriage in the Lord is for time and all eternity, and that families can be sealed together here and have those sealings in force in the world to come. So some guy starts reading anti-Mormon literature and comes to the conclusion that Joseph Smith was nothing more than a charlatan or a kook, and he decides to quit the church. Okay, he's got that right. No shunning there. He keeps his friends, but let's say he's married. He no longer wants to attend church, nor does he want his children to, either.
But his wife is devastated. She was married in the temple and she had certain expectations based on sacred and solemn covenants taken therein. She wants a family in the church and had every right to expect it. Yet he signs on to one of your ex-Mormon boards and complains that the church is interfering in his family and is influencing his wife (who wants the kids to continue going to church) and may even take her side in wanting a divorce.
Now is this cultish?? If so, you're seeing only his side. What if Joseph Smith wasn't a charlatan? His wife had the choice of marrying a non-Mormon and decided to marry a man determined in the faith. They made sacred vows together in holy places. Now the church is to blame for getting involved in a family matter that the wife wants. She doesn't want an ex-Mormon for a husband -- someone who sits on his ass on Sunday and can't baptize their children or administer priesthood blessings; who makes snide remarks about the church and undermines the faith of the children.
You can't put all these ex-Mo's in a basket and write them off as cult activity. So when he posts these same snide, often obscene criticisms with no one knowing the other side of the story, guys like you say, "Yeah, these cults are awful. They should just stay out of family matters." So go back and read my post again. You may SAY you're not a typical atheist, Cofty, but let someone say something religious that you don't agree with, and all you leave is are one- or two-sentence rejoinders of ridicule with absolutely no substance. This is typical for atheists, yet you say you're not of that stripe.
You're free to your own opinions, but I know what JW life and religion are like and I know what Mormon life and Protestant life are like, and I wouldn't tolerate JW cultisms for an instant. But I have considerable freedom to believe and say what I want in the Mormon faith. If women want to be ordained to the priesthood and they actively lobby the church for it, they shouldn't be surprised to be excommunicated. Is that cultish? All these things are moot, and you have to do quite a bit of stretching to turn the Mormon church into Jehovah's Witnesses.
Joe134cd » I could see it as been nothing but a good thing if there was more cross over between the 2 movements. Welcome to you cold steel and I always enjoy reading your posts.
Thank you for your comments, but as I tried to tell Cofty, I believe the two movements to be radically different. I don't mind civil discourse at all, but when people like me are banned from defending the church, often with no comment, there can be no meeting of the minds. This board is how it should be. Some of the obscenities and completely godless and rude remarks on the ex-Mo boards just make me want to have nothing to do with them. They're always happy to hear from folks like you. With me, not so much.
Check out this address:
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David_Jay
But I have considerable freedom to believe and say what I want in the Mormon faith. If women want to be ordained to the priesthood and they actively lobby the church for it, they shouldn't be surprised to be excommunicated. Is that cultish?
Mormons performed baptisms for the dead for several of my cousins who died in the Holocaust, Anne Frank being one of them. Even after we protested and were promised by LDS church leaders this would never happen again, several other relatives who perished in the Holocaust were again baptized this way by Mormons.
When confronting LDS leaders again, we were told there was really nothing we could do to guarantee that it would never happen again. Mormons feel they must do this work, and despite the promises made, we were just going to have to live with this.
They promised it wouldn't happen again and it did, again and again, as recently as one and a half years ago. Now they tell us to just accept it?
It excommunicates women members for wanting priesthood, it doesn't excommunicate those who lied to us.
Now is that cultish?