How Knowledge is Dissipated in Talks

by Cold Steel 66 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • joe134cd
    joe134cd

    I believe that although both religions are theologically and doctrinally different. Structurally, organisationally, and behaviourally are the same. Justifiably so as they both have elements of high control.Doctrine aside if I had a choice I would opt to be Mormon. I'm quite sure had I, my life would be quite different to what it is now. When I left the JWs, I honestly thought that there couldn't be another group that was more crazy in their ideas as JWs. I guess that is part of the reason I have since become so fascinated with the LDS church - btw many TBM I have meet on the street are quite surprised at how much I know considering I have never been affiliated with the church.

    I think there is certainly substantial evidence to suggest JS was a charlatan, and I can't help but wonder if he was to behave in the same manner today weather he would get the same following.

    I to don't like visiting some X-JW forums because of their sarcastic rude and vulgar speech. Credit to Simon for keeping tabs on it. But I guess these are people who have been hurt and lied to, so to a point i can understand it. It is what it is at the end of the day.

  • Londo111
    Londo111

    ColdSteel:

    Perhaps the LDS church is a better environment than the JWs and has nowhere near the extreme control. Since I'm never been, I cannot say.

    However, the way you describe former Mormons (and their websites, books, ect...) sounds allot like how many JWs would describe former JWs, including this forum here.

  • David_Jay
    David_Jay

    And I am sure that you, Cold Steel, despite our clear disagreements, may be one of the nicest and kindest people I would ever want to meet.

    But you also might not be aware of how hearing from a person who is pro-Mormon might feel to people who have left the Watchtower.

    There's no theological connection between the Mormon religion and the Jehovah's Witnesses, so there isn't a reason to bring up LDS teachings here. They can't help us see the error of Watchtower teachings and don't relate to how Witnesses teach the Bible. An occasional tip that might help is always welcome, but not if it's about singing the praise of another religious group that views 'making converts out of everyone in the world' their main goal in life. That sounds too much like what we hate.

    A non-Jewish friend of mine attended my Seder one year and ate everything and anything that was offered to him. Unknown to him, he had caught a stomach virus a few days earlier. After he went to bed that night he woke up vomiting, feverish, and stayed horribly sick for days with rotavirus. While it had nothing to do with Jewish food or Passover (my friend learned he caught it from his niece), my poor friend can't go near another Seder as it makes his stomach turn. I don't send him an invitation and don't expect him back for a Jewish meal anytime in the future...ever.

    Please, stop and realize that you are doing something similar in your pro-LDS stand and comments here. You are welcome here, and there might be something helpful you have to offer that you learned from Mormonism that directly relates to JWs--but otherwise you need to realize that like my friend, we can't stomach hearing things from another proselytizing religion.

  • Cold Steel
    Cold Steel

    David Jay » When confronting LDS leaders again, we were told there was really nothing we could do to guarantee that it would never happen again. Mormons feel they must do this work, and despite the promises made, we were just going to have to live with this.

    The church has no control over its individual members who are gathering names at random. Unless a way can be found to tag an individual for a hold on baptisms, there's no way to guarantee that they won't be. According to my sister, who's a genealogist, the church has cracked down on which names can be submitted. Sometimes names are submitted by converts to the church who had relatives in the Holocaust, and if the relation is right, they have the right to do so.

    Baptism for the dead does not turn dead relatives into Mormons, but we believe that the dead are taught the gospel of Jesus Christ in the world to come. And though their work is done in temples, it is not ratified unless the dead on the other side approve of it.

    When Jesus was on the cross, he told one of the condemned, "Today shalt thou be with me in Paradise." The apostle Peter said that when Jesus died, he went to the realm of the spirits and for the first time preached the gospel to those who had not the opportunity to hear it here:

    18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

    19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

    20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

    21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

    -- 1 Peter 3:18-21

    The preaching of the gospel to the dead is unavoidable, and with all due respect to both you and your relatives, the work will be done, either now or later, and it's really none of your business. It's between your dead relatives (and mine) and God. If they choose not to avail themselves of the work done here, all they have to do in the next is refuse it. Out of respect I'm willing to halt it for now, but it will eventually be done.

    6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. --1 Peter 4:6

    The whole idea behind Christian work for the dead is that men may progress and grow in the world to come as if they were still in the flesh, yet they will continue to live on in the spirit. You think you're protecting your relatives and honoring their memory, while you may actually be holding them back.

    28 And when all things shall be subdued unto [God], then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

    29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

    -- 1 Corinthians 15:28-29

    You think we are desecrating the names of your dead, when in fact, no man can see the Kingdom of Heaven without baptism and the conferral of the Holy Spirit. Presently, according to my sister, the church tells members that a person must be dead for more than a hundred years before their work can be done (it used to be one year), but what do you think will happen after a hundred years? Or two hundred? The work will be done because we've been tasked to do it.

    If the work we do is based on deception, and Jesus is not the Christ and all baptisms are for naught, none of it will make any difference. But if Jesus is the Christ, then what we do is for the benefit of all mankind.

    We're presently in the times of the Gentiles (see Isaiah 11), but when the Gentiles reject the Gospel (and we know they're going to because we've already been told they will), then it will go back to the Jews.

    And when the times of the Gentiles is come in, a light shall break forth among them that sit in darkness, and it shall be the fulness of my gospel; but they receive it not; for they perceive not the light, and they turn their hearts from me because of the precepts of men. And in that generation shall the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

    (D&C 45:28–30)

    The Jews will not always reject the Messiah, according to our understanding of the scriptures, and upon his return, the times of the Jews will come again, and the first will be last and first again. No offense is intended in our work for the dead and it does not increase our numbers or benefit us in any way.


  • cofty
    cofty
    The preaching of the gospel to the dead is unavoidable, and with all due respect to both you and your relatives, the work will be done, either now or later, and it's really none of your business.

    Your arrogance is astonishing.

    Mormonism is every bit as obnoxious as the Watchtower.

  • Cold Steel
    Cold Steel

    Londo111 » the way you describe former Mormons (and their websites, books, ect...) sounds allot like how many JWs would describe former JWs, including this forum here.

    Fair enough. And I can't deny the similarities. The JWs and the LDS both believe they have been commanded to preach the gospel in the latter days. Both have ruling councils that set policy and are expected to be treated as the Lord's anointed.

    Where it gets dicey is that the JWs feel they were chosen, and the LDS feel they've been commissioned. No one in the JW church has heard a peep from God, whereas the LDS believe its leaders receive revelation through the ministration of angels, theophanies, visions, dreams and the whisperings of the Holy Spirit. JWs have no apostles or prophets, whereas the LDS has all of the ancient offices held in the early church.

    Apostates are understandably treated similarly; however, the LDS have no shunning policies. We are in dispute with our apostates and would love to see them return. We intend no emotional harm, but we are taken back by their bitterness and sometimes hatred. They react the same way that JW apostates do and, to me, it's not the same.

    David Jay » Please, stop and realize that you are doing something similar in your pro-LDS stand and comments here. You are welcome here, and there might be something helpful you have to offer that you learned from Mormonism that directly relates to JWs--but otherwise you need to realize that like my friend, we can't stomach hearing things from another proselytizing religion.

    If you will examine my posts, I discuss Mormonism only when someone on his board uses it to attack something I say as it relates to the Jehovah's Witnesses. I don't bring up anything to proselytize, but many times it's initiated by atheists like Cofty, who would like to see this site directed by the atheist dissenters. I feel JWs who leave the sect make a mistake by turning their backs on religion, but I never push my own religion on them.

    I'd prefer to leave my religion out of the discussion and never mention it again, but it seems the curse of the JW debate. It's why, when I talk to JW missionaries, that I refuse to tell them I'm LDS. It always turns into what's wrong with us instead of let's see what you teach from the Bible.

    If someone uses this site to attack the LDS faith, I feel compelled to defend it; however, I'd much rather discuss the true problems of the JWs and leave Mormonism for its own website.

  • cofty
    cofty
    the LDS believe its leaders receive revelation through the ministration of angels, theophanies, visions, dreams and the whisperings of the Holy Spirit

    Bollocks

    I'd much rather discuss the true problems of the JWs

    Pot calls kettle black

  • Cold Steel
    Cold Steel

    Cofty » Your arrogance is astonishing.

    Mormonism is every bit as obnoxious as the Watchtower.

    See? Two sentences, zero substance.

    I rest my case. Talk about arrogance.

  • sparrowdown
    sparrowdown

    Good to know what someone's bias is.

  • cofty
    cofty
    See? Two sentences, zero substance.

    The substance is in your post about how your cult leaders hear voices from god.

    Its incredible that people still believe this in the 21st century and that you have the audacity to judge a different cult.

    Scientology was invented so that Mormons would have somebody to laugh at.


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