JW message becoming more and more relevant

by lsw1961 144 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • cofty

    john - I am going to assume you are more intelligent than this.

    One more try.

    Here we all are with a sense of right and wrong. How did we acquire that? That is our topic.

    Let's assume for a moment that I have not got the slightest clue. (I have, but let's assume I don't for the sake of conversation)

    You, on the other hand assert that we know what's right and wrong because we got our moral compass from god AND because he has told us what is right and wrong in the bible.

    So let's test that.

    Are you with me so far?

    Let's take it just one question at a time.

    In the bible god commands his followers to commit genocide and infanticide and to take slaves from the nations and gives them permission to indulge in kidnap, forced marriage/rape.

    Would you have been led by your god-given conscience or by god's command?

    Anybody reading this thread can see that this is a very reasonable question. Please don't duck it a fourth time.

  • Lieu

    When you think about it, that whole rapy thing wasn't without purpose.

    We have the custom of carrying a new bride across the "threshold" of a house or some such dwelling. That actually comes from Romulus getting wives for his men. They killed the men of surrounding Italian tribes and carried off the women to be their wives; rape victims kicking and screaming. They had to drag and carry them into their houses. Yet, this custom which comes from mass rape is looked upon favorably today by Western societies.

    Ancient people, ancient times.

    Now, in the Bible if you raped someone, basically soiling her, you had to marry and take care of her. Gross, I know. But you couldn't run around like the Scandinavians just pillaging and raping. It comes from that whole Tribe of Benjamin incident. However, your raping activity was stopped there because if you rape another, you've committed adultery and that was punishable by death. In the ancient Middle East the rocks they used to bash your head in weren't small. That's what you get.

    It's best not to rape.

  • johnamos

    There is no ducking your questions on my part but instead willing to adapt to your beliefs (for the sake of this discussion) that there is no God and the bible is not true, therefore if that is the case it should not be used as an example, but being that you are so adamant about including a God that you don’t believe exist and bible you think is fiction…then my answer is that being that you are referring to God here as he is real and exist and did give such commands, then my answer is YES, I would listen to whatever he says to do.

    Keep in mind that while you are referring to God at this time (wherever you are going with your reasoning) as being real, then this same God that gave such commands is also the same one that gave those that are following his commands gave them their inherited conscience and one’s conscience could not be greater then the one who gave them it to begin with.

    Also all that you are citing in your example when referring to something that is said to have happen in the bible, since you are using as if it is a true account , then the context of everything that you are referring to should be taking into consideration.

    Example from an non biblical account…you might not go out and murder someone while committing some crime but you may be in the military and your government can call you up and send you to war and you would shoot and kill any that your government and commanders deem as enemies.

    In that same military setting you may also capture and confine those that are deem fit to be even using then to work while in captivity.

  • truthseeker100
    johnamos do you think I am a demon? I was just wondering? I have been accused of that before by Witnesses! Read, listen and understand. Take ten minutes and go for a walk someplace before you reply! LOL.
  • Lieu

    I don't believe we are descendants of monkeys because with the right pepper sauce, monkey meat & brains tastes great! So soft, so sweet and creamy.

  • cofty

    Morning John thanks for your reply. Sorry for the delay i'm in the UK.

    Just to recap...

    The topic is how we developed our moral compass also known as a conscience.

    For the sake of conversation I am starting by taking an agnostic position on the question. On the other hand you are asserting that our moral compass is god-given and because god has told us what is right and wrong in the bible.

    I proposed a dilemma with that position.

    In the bible god approves of infanticide, slavery, kidnap, forced marriage/rape and genocide.

    I assumed that these things would trouble your "god-given conscience".

    So my question is how there can be a contradiction between the dictates of your moral compass and the written commands of god. I asked you which of the two you would follow.

    Your answer is very interesting...

    "my answer is YES, I would listen to whatever he says to do"

    So if you had been a soldier of Jah you would murder babies, taken slaves, kidnapped virgins and raped them while ignoring your pangs of conscience.

    Ethics based on faith is not objective morality at all is it? It is capricious ethics by divine fiat. Absolutely anything can be declared good if your capricious god says so. Is this not the ethics of ISIS?

    Surely we can think of a better basis for morality than this?



    I found your comment about the "confidence" of worldly people regarding 1923 to be particularly ironic. Are you aware of the "confidence" of the WTBTS concerning 1925? LOL!!

    Just a word of advice, you may not want to point to "worldly" date-setting as a defense for the WTBTS.

    Let's examine the WTBTS some 90 years later! LOL!!!!


  • Heaven

    If I told you I was coming over to your house 'imminently' and over 100 years passed and I never showed up, would you still believe that I was coming 'soon' or would you conclude 'I don't think she's ever coming'.

    THE one requirement of Faith is that you must abandon logic and reason.

  • cofty

    Hi John just bumping the thread for you.

    The question we have left hanging is why, in your worldview, your god-given conscience should have to be suppressed in order to carry out god's instructions.

    You have admitted you would have obeyed god to commit infanticide, take slaves and kidnap virgins.

    I presume these things would trouble your conscience?

    Don't you think there is a strong case for saying that christians don't actually get their ethics from god? I am suggesting that you bring your ethics to the bible.

    The worrying thing is that you are willing to suppress your moral judgement in order to approve atrocities in an Iron Age book

  • johnamos

    No need to bump…I just have decided that it would be in vain to try to continue to discuss this with you being that you are showing that you are unable to comprehend and apply what I have said so far.

    You keep bringing a God and bible accounts that you don’t believe exist into the conversation.

    You have not cited the accounts in the bible that you are using as your examples so that we can see the context in which these examples you are using.

    You have not addressed how individual cops/military personally, etc…how in there home day to day life could be loving friendly and non violent, people, good fathers and husbands but yet are able to shoot/bomb and kill people when they are given the commands from their fellow just by chance in existence leaders.

    How there are many people who would dare not hunt/harm deer, etc…and others do it for sport and yet the same people or would not hunt/harm animals, but if in a situation of a need for food, would fine themselves shooting deer/animals, etc.

    I could go on and on but like I said, it would be in vain.

    Anyway, you can respond however you want to this but I won’t be.

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