Court denies summary judgement for Laurel Jehovah's Witnesses congregation

by OrphanCrow 161 Replies latest watchtower child-abuse

  • Joe Grundy
    Joe Grundy

    I never was a JW.

    My knowledge of US law is limited. I am a retired police officer (UK) and my specialist area for many years in England & Wales involved a great deal of work in this sort of area - i.e. in what circumstances what information (material) is available, useable, must be made available. I offer this for what its worth and am open to contradiction and correction. What I say applies to the principles of law in E&W, but with the growing internationalism in law and jurisdiction the principles are useful.

    In E&W, the principles were codified in the Police & Criminal Evidence Act 1984. Before that, there was a mish-mash of common law and ;suck it and see'.

    Under PACE 1984, information ('material') was classified in different ways - but always ALWAYS (this is important) with the principle that the person who was owed the duty of confidentiality had the rights over that confidentiality. In other words, for example, in the present case - claimed penitent/clergy confidentiality - the right to confidentiality belongs to the penitent, not the clergy, and it is his to waive, not the priest's.

    To continue. Most material, not held under a duty of confidentiality, (say, for example, purchase records from a retailer) can be provided with no problem. The holder of the information could, if necessary, be compelled by a magistrates' warrant to provide material.

    Move up a step. Material held under a duty of confidentiality. This would include information held by (for example) a bank or an accountant under a professional duty of confidentiality. This is called 'Special Procedure Material'. The holder of the material can only be compelled to produce it by order of a Circuit Judge (a high level Judge) where the judge is satisfied that serious crime etc. is involved. This 'Special Procedure' is not used lightly and circuit judges rightly probe every application.

    Then there is 'Excluded Material'. This is information which is provided under an expectation of confidentiality and which no-one else can obtain. Full stop. Period. In E&W this includes medical records, stuff like that (e.g. phone conversations with The Samaritans) and - to get back to the subject here - penitent/clergy confessions.

    I have never been a catholic, but my understanding is that if I were, and if I chose to make my confession to a priest - or if I was in any other denomination and chose to make a confession one on one with an expectation of confidentiality - there is no legal authority which could compel the person to whom I confessed to give that information to anyone.

    But the central point is confidentiality. I talk to my priest on the basis that he is constrained by his duty not to pass that information on. That is the contract between us - my expectation under which I provide that information.

    Now compare that to the JW scenario. Two elders, JC, a duty to report to HQ. Doesn't comply at all with the expectation/duty of penitent and confessor.

    And I repeat it because it's worth repeating - the right of confidentiality belongs to the person who gave the information, not the person who holds it.

    Sorry, this has dragged on.

  • Vidiot
    Vidiot

    the girl next door - "...Watchtower is in for a painful lesson..."

    Fisherman, too, from the look of things.

  • Vidiot
    Vidiot

    Joe Grundy - "...Sorry, this has dragged on."

    Please don't be; some need to have it spelled out.

    The fact that the WTS is even attempting to compare the two is little more than a transparent ploy to mitigate the trouble they're obviously already in...

    ...because at this point, if that's all they got left, they really got nothing.

    Jeezus, a f**king ten-year-old could see that.

  • Mephis
    Mephis

    The clause in the exemption is why it's not a general exemption. It specifies under which terms the state of Delaware recognises a clergy exemption to report. Eventually Fisherman will catch onto that. It may not be intentional, it may just be clumsy phrasing, but it puts WBTS into the awful position of reporting their child abusers in Delaware to the authorities and making sure children are protected from harm. What a wicked law.

    -----

    @Joe - interesting that from your perspective at the frontline, thank you. The legal background may interest you. It's a little obscure and case law dating back centuries... the ultimate endpoint in Britain is for a judge to rule that something is required for the public interest. Once that ruling is made, you can end up with Catholic priests in the dock expected to testify. (Although last properly tested back in late Victorian era!). CofE clergy are still in an odd place with the whole confession thing - legally obliged to remain silent (state church legacy) but also equally subject to a judge demanding testimony. Last I heard, they were trying to figure out how to fix that themselves.

    Judges don't tend to press that hard though (the discretion under PACE) which is why it's only when dim JWs try to muck up major child abuse investigations that the stick comes out. Like it did in Newcastle not so long back. And then after months of the judge trying to persuade them to testify of their own accord. They chose to testify on the morning of the trial, rather than spend some time at Her Majesty's pleasure.

  • Fisherman
    Fisherman
    But the central point is confidentiality. I talk to my priest on the basis that he is constrained by his duty not to pass that information on.

    But the conditions of "religious" confidentiality are not set by you or by what people expect or think it is the case. They are set forth by the US Constitution and you do not have to like it either. If US law protects JW version of priest/ penitent and you don't like it -too bad! JW version is entitled to same immunity provisions as Catholic versions under US law regardless of what you like or think. And US High Courts will vindicate it.

  • Vidiot
    Vidiot

    Fisherman - "But the conditions of 'religious' confidentiality are not set by you or by what people expect or think it is the case. They are set forth by the US Constitution..."

    In what freaky-ass mirror universe does your Constitution describe the Watchtower's pathetic attempt at defining "religious confidentiality"?

    And besides, your vaunted Constitution never gets amended?

    Fisherman - "If US law protects JW version of priest/ penitent and you don't like it -too bad!"

    Fine.

    That being said, if US law clarifies and improves to the point where it does not protect the JW "version" of priest/penitent, and you don't like it... well...

    Fisherman - "JW version is entitled to save immunity provisions as Catholic versions under US law regardless of what you like or think."

    Dude, even the f**king POPE wants to dump your precious "immunity provisions" for sex offense confessions.

    The world changes, often for the better.

    Try to keep up.

    Fisherman - "And US High Courts will vindicate it."

    You sure about that?

    'Cause I was under the impression that High Courts were usually comprised of individuals that actually gave a shit or two about justice.

    Not to mention that the High Courts didn't back down when the Religious Right tried to muscle abortion out of the realm of legality, and the WTS aren't even close to their league.

  • GrreatTeacher
    GrreatTeacher

    Except, Fisherman, that our system of government is set up with a system of checks and balances in which the Judicial branch interprets the laws of the Legislative branch, including the Constitution.

    Just because you don't like the way such laws were interpreted doesn't make the court's decision invalid.

  • juandefiero
    juandefiero

    Fisherman: Why don't you just give up your defense of them? How can you know all you know about the organization and their harmful policies and still defend them?

    They might be 99.9% pure, but if there's just that one drop of poison, why would you gulp it down?

  • Vidiot
    Vidiot

    He sure seems to like it (or at least, is anxious to defend it) for some reason...

  • Dagney
    Dagney

    Where the society blows it and will continue to blow it is everywhere I have quickly read, the clergy person is singular. It does not read, "clergymen, judicial committees, legal desk at corporate headquarters, traveling overseers, neighboring congregation elders and their friends."

    There is no confidentiality with the WT as was the intention in the constitution for a penitent to have a confidential and safe environment TO GO TO. It's beautiful how this argument has failed at all levels for the Watchtower Corporation.

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