They would Stone us if the law would allow

by ElderEtta 51 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • ThomasCovenant
    ThomasCovenant

    I'm not quite sure I follow what you are getting at Simon.

    I didn't read the the OP as trying to nail the WTS to the stake for a snippet of a phrase they printed in 1952, but I may have misinterpreted.

    I took it they were asking if they were correct in their recollection and JWFacts answered with the information to clarify. Job done.

    What's the big deal with the date?

    What helped me out of the religion was reading stuff that had been printed before I was born by the religion I was a part of.

    I only wish that I'd known the shit they had printed including this about apostates and yes I would certainly use the 1952 quote to point out what the religion is really like.

    Just as I would use the 1928 quotation about the Pleiades constellation being the suggested dwelling place of Jehovah which I believe, if I am correct in my recollection, helped you in your leaving the Witness religion.

  • _Morpheus
    _Morpheus

    Face palms. Just palms in faces all over. Its hard not to think some of you play stupid for laughs, and yet i know some of it is sincere. For the sake of discussion, i will treat it as sincere...

    here is the OP:

    Several years ago unless I was dreaming I read a watchtower quotation that effectively said that they would execute us as disfellowshipped individuals if the law would allow.

    None of that is phrased as past tense or historical. Its all present tense and phrased to read, to anyone for whom english is their first language , as if this was written a few years ago and still current watchtower thought. Thats why it matters. To try and play as if this is any way current makes all who leave the org or who criticize the org look like idiots. We take quotes from 65 years ago and run with them, making them appear to have been printed a mere “several years ago”. Thats factually and purposefully dishonest and undermines real debate on the organization. It ruins credibility. Thats why it matters.

    Before this goes off the rails, yes the quote is relevant, in context and with the proper historical perspective. When a source like jwfacts quotes the wt, with date and publication references, its completelty legitimate for discussion... but without that acknowledgment and source reference its deceitful and underhanded. Of course the OP has been meet with the usual froth of “yea the wt is evil!” With few willing to have the honest discussion as to how long ago this was... no we would rather jump up and down and get in a tizzy if anyone points out how foolish this whole thing is or tries to add the least bit of perspective.

    But dont let me throw the cold water of logic on your pep rally. Continue as you were :)

  • Simon
    Simon
    What's the big deal with the date?

    Well, what is the cutoff for something being an issue? Sure, if they printed that last month or last year then go to town ... but it's close to 70 years old. Do we hold other groups to the same account in the same way? Do we hold ourselves to the same account?

    Anyone who posts things online probably has things they have said that they don't think of the same today and that could be just a few years.

    They are totally legitimate to use to show that the WTS has believed things like that, has said them, has sometimes changed beliefs etc... but unless they are still saying that, I don't think it's really credible to harp on about as a thing in itself. Even then, it could easily be seen as just slightly 'clumsy' phrasing.

    Just as I would use the 1928 quotation about the Pleiades constellation being the suggested dwelling place of Jehovah which I believe, if I am correct in my recollection, helped you in your leaving the Witness religion.

    Yes, totally - the crazy beliefs, the changes, all totally important and worth highlighting. I just don't think that a message which is fundamentally "they want to execute ex-members" is legitimate, it's hyperbole.

  • ThomasCovenant
    ThomasCovenant

    ''None of that is phrased as past tense''

    I apologise,

    I took it that the phrase ''Several years ago...... I read'' to be past tense,

    as I understood the past tense of 'to read' to be the word 'read', pronounced 'red'.

  • _Morpheus
    _Morpheus
    I took it that the phrase ''Several years ago...... I read'' to be past tense,

    Lol see! You arnt as stupid as you pretend :) you do know “several years ago” is past tense and, im assuming, you are then smart enough to know it doesn't mean, in any context other than geology, 65 years ago.

    Common ground is amazing!

  • bennyk
    bennyk

    Several minutes ago unless I was dreaming I read a watchtower quotation that effectively said that they would execute us as disfellowshipped individuals if the law would allow.

    I read the Watchtower quotation several minutes ago. On this site.

  • road to nowhere
    road to nowhere

    It may not be in print recently, but I have heard brothers say as much.

  • DATA-DOG
    DATA-DOG

    I read the OP and knew what was meant, even though the sentence structure was lacking.

    Just go back a couple of years to the DC that talked about Satan’s kitchen helpers making brews of lies, and how apostates should be hated with a Godly hatred...

    The “stoning/extermination” sentiment has not gone away, although the Legal/PR boys are probably trying to smooth over the issue, along with the shunning policy. The last thing the WTBTS needs is Pedo lawsuits and being viewed as guilty of hate speech as well.

    I bet the GB and Helpers ( future GB ) will slip up in a public talk sooner or later.

    DD

  • FatFreek 2005
    FatFreek 2005

    In defense of the OP I was at an apostafest some 3 years ago where this subject drew heated attention. The question was raised as to how old that publication was when it was published. More important, the question was raised as to whether WT had rescinded that teaching. None of us knew the answers.

    However, one of the group, a recent exiting elder told us this: that just before he resigned, a soon-to-be disfellowshipped (use of tobacco) person (gender not important) lamented how he/she was told by the elders that if he/she was living in the days of the Israelites he would be getting stoned to death! The person was understandably taken aback at this statement and justified to him/herself that this elder's statement was the key to refusing to attend a subsequent meeting with the judicial committee. Naturally, that person was disfellowshipped.

    Getting back home from this fest I dug into my WT Lib for this topic. While this all can be considered anecdotal, I found no evidence from WT publications that they've rescinded what they said back in 1952.

    I suppose that can be said of many silly WT teachings of the past. However, the onus is on their back, not ours, to defend teachings they’ve published.

    As to quoting old publications, Watchtower literature has no qualms referring to early Zion's Watch Tower magazines when it suits their purpose, reinforcing whatever it wants to show its readers. . A case in point, among many, is from a recent Watchtower magazine: “One of the reasons why Zion’s Watch Tower was first published in July 1879 was to defend the Bible teaching of the ransom. Its pages provided "food at the proper time," for in the late 1800’s, a growing number of professed Christians began to question how Jesus’ death could be a ransom for our sins.” The Watchtower 2010, 8/15 p. 12 par. 2.

    That Zion’s Watch Tower reference reasonably implies that there is no statute of limitations for "food at the proper time". And it is only one of some 360 references to the older “Zion's Watch Tower” (1879-1908) within its modern literature since 1950.

    [I find it interesting that in an essay I wrote in 2012, the number of WT Library finds to their abbreviation “ZWT” [for Zion’s Watch Tower] was 1,507 instances . Moments ago, however, using my more recent 2013 Library, searching for the term “ZWT” yielded a “not valid” response]

  • _Morpheus
    _Morpheus

    Fat, i appreciate the logical response. My retort is above. That is a recension, plain as day. You remark regarding anecdotal accounts is exactly right. I have known plenty of jw’s who would take a shot at apostates, given a chance. That doesn't make it wt policy, it doesnt mean the wt org teaches such actions.

    im simply presenting things as they are, not as some would wish them to be.

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit