Infiltrated Elders?

by john.prestor 27 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • john.prestor

    So I'm watching John Cedars commentary on the Annual Meeting from this last October, and at one point he shows a clip of Garrett Loesch talking about the struggles Jehovah's Witnesses faced decades before in the Soviet Union. He claimed that police officers, maybe the KGB, infiltrated congregations which met in secret by studying with Jehovah's Witnesses, getting baptized, and then working their way up to becoming Elders. Ceders jokes that this shows what kind of role Holy Spirit actually plays within Body of Elders, but another interpretation came to my mind just now. Look, I can get paranoid sometimes, and I don't want to jump to conclusions, and that's part of why I'm even posting this. So give me your honest thoughts at the end.

    What he's describing sounds ridiculous, I don't know how else to say that. Pretending to study so you can turn someone into the government, that I believe. I saw a video a few years back at a congregation I studied in which a Brother imprisoned for his faith in China described just that happening in a believable way. But what would be the point of even infiltrating and then working to become an Elder? I guess you could contact other congregations and turn a bunch of them in, so maybe the spy goes for the long con, the long game, it's not out of the question, it just sounds contrived and bizarre. Does anyone know of any proof whatsoever that something like this happened anywhere in the world within this organization?

    I ask for this reason: we all know the Governing Body communicates with the faithful through implication, they imply things they don't wanna say directly, like we all know Armageddon's right around the corner implies Armageddon will come within a couple years at most, we all know that. But they don't actually say that, so you can't hold them accountable for the couple years part, because what Armageddon's right around the corner means actually depends on how you interpret it, even though they know how you'll interpret it.

    So here's my question: does Gerrit Losch mean to suggest to his listeners that some Elders could secretly work for the government? It's not a statement you can make likely in and of itself, saying that sets a precedent that goes beyond this historical example and could easily raise suspicions about Elders, something the Governing Body doesn't normally do. I could totally see Jehovah's Witnesses who hear about Elders covering up child sex abuse, Elders molesting children, tell themselves or to each other, Nah, that's actually undercover police trying to make us look bad. That's a question, not a statement. I suspect that's what he's trying to do or at the very least opening the door to, but I can't be sure. It's just a weird thing to say, so I'm wondering why he said it to begin with. Why pick that story out of all possible stories to share, even if it is true?

  • smiddy3

    I remember hearing those statements many years ago about Commies infiltrating the org.working their way up the ranks to spy and become like a fifth column movement within the organization.

    I think its just another ploy to get the R&F all worked up about how they and they only have the "truth" and the Govt`s go to extreme lengths to persecute them.

    Its not unlike many years ago when the org .threw a cat among the pigeons in the congregations implying that their were weak brothers & sisters in the congregations that needed to be "marked" because they could be a danger to ones spirituality so have little contact with them until they prove their Christian maturity .

    Haven`t they also said in times past that the Govts could print fake Watchtowers to mislead the faithful ? I remember that.

    Its all about control & FOG keep the JW`s on their toes persecution can come from anywhere.

    Just keep trusting the GB as the F&DS and you will be fine.

  • stuckinarut2

    Interesting thoughts!

    Well, it does smack of paranoia by the GB.

    It will also work wonders as it will now result in a very suspicious atmosphere to develop within congregations! And as the old expression goes - "A House divided can not stand!"

    Well done GB - You have just caused your own flock to view one another through sideways eyes....

  • jwfacts

    A mole is the term for a spy that infiltrates an organization and works their way up the hierarchy. Particularly in Comminist countries, where Jehovah’s Witnesses are under ban, it does not sound unreasonable that it occurred.

    For the Governing Body to discuss that this happened is not a smart move, as it completely invalidates their claim that appointments are under the direction of the Holy Spirit.

    I don’t know of specific cases where this has happened. I know of a number of cases where family members get reinstated, despite not believing it is the truth, simply to talk to relatives. This too shows Holy Spirit does not direct the organization.

  • Xanthippe
    we all know the Governing Body communicates with the faithful through implication, they imply things they don't wanna say directly

    They're not afraid of government agents, they're scared sh*+less of apostates. This is an obtuse warning, as you mention above, about apostates infiltrating the organisation.

    They're asking the r+f to turn one another in if someone is sounding like an apostate, asking questions, having doubts. They want to stamp on apostate 'spies'. They know now that even many elders are pimo, they read this site and others.

  • john.prestor

    Thanks for the feedback guys. Yeah, it's not out of the question it happened, jwfacfs, I just noticed like you and stuckinarut2do that they're admitting something they shouldn't admit by saying that. That draws my attention and makes me question their motivation.

    I'm with you Xanthippe, it's a warning about something, and it might be apostates. I connect it back to child sex abuse because he's talking about governments doing this, and governments keep investigating them, so the context fits.

    I think you're onto something too, smiddy3, it's definitely about control and I think in this case information control, keeping people from believing things that make the Governing Body look bad

  • zeb

    Given that the org supports the thinking that people will dob in others for hem length, tight pants, speaking their mind, it follows that if someone was given the 'authority' they would show their loyalty by informing on others in any other way.

  • WillYouDFme

    Its one thing. Persecution complex.

    When fear is sown, you can sell other bullshit much easier.

  • Diogenesister

    Interesting thoughts.

    we all know the Governing Body communicates with the faithful through implication, they imply things they don't wanna say directly..

    Heck yeah

    I did know the story of the Romanian brothers and sisters, and ive read the Gulag Archepelago by Solzonetzen(sorry, butchered the spelling) and The Long Walk and a few other books about how people suffered under communist persecution, not just dubs, so honestly nothing surprises me.

    But yes, its the old "two sides of the mouth"thing whereby all Jehovah's witnesses are good, holy people and if a Jehovah's witness does anything bad they get around it by saying "oh he wasnt really ever one of Jehovahs witnesses". Huh? But they were a jehovah's witness! I mean its possible the "mole"in question was a genuine elder who just realised it was a cult and turned them in....hence "not a real JW".

    It was another piece designed to tug at the heart strings, though, which it did in bucket load

  • OrphanCrow
    john.prestor: Does anyone know of any proof whatsoever that something like this happened anywhere in the world within this organization?

    For what it is worth, a released document from the CIA claims that the JWs in Greece were infiltrated by members of the KKE (Communist Party of Greece). Apparently the document was released in 1978 and it concerns events that happened post-WW2 in 1948:

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