"There is evidence of a Creator if you just look for it"

by unsure 56 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • unsure

    (For the record, I’m agnostic who is earnestly seeking an objective, honest and concrete hope for something greater)

    “There is evidence of a Creator if you just look for it”

    Many of us have heard similar sentences from believers regarding proof of Creator, proof that their religion is the correct one, proof that their particular sect is the right one, proof that their individual sects interpretation of a certain religious text is the right one, proof that their own personal interpretation of a certain religious text is the right one; the list goes on.

    In one of my previous posts, I shared the following thought of mine:

    What I find exhausting and disheartening is that even if intelligent design was proven, the very next forum post would be about who's intelligent designer is the true Creator.

    If a new electronic device was released and users from around the world interpreted the manual differently and had to debate others to get their personal opinions on how to operate this device, would the manual be very effective? Why would the manufacturers release a product and manual that could be interpreted differently?

    Why are there so many religions? Why are there so many denominations within each?

    Why does it have to be this complicated?

    I want to add to my thoughts above:

    Many around the world expend all their mental, emotional and physical energies in just finding what their next meal will be (on top of what is described below for those of us who are more fortunate).

    Many of us who are fortunate enough to live in relative comfort still struggle with mental, emotional and physical ailments and limitations where just keeping afloat from the depths of depression and physical challenges is enough to rob us of all our mental, emotional and physical energies.

    Many around the world have just enough in them to survive, let alone live a proper life.

    Therefore, many around the world do not have the ability to objectively and honestly look for this undeniable, irrefutable proof of a Creator, every point and minute detail presented as evidence for intelligent design (and every point made in argument against evolution), let alone which Creator is the right one, which religion this Creator favours, which sect within that religion this Creator favours, which translation of the religious text of that particular sect of that particular religion this Creator favours or is the right one, what meaning or interpretation of a particular verse in the religious text of the particular sect within the particular religion this Creator favors or is the right one, what meaning or interpretation of a particular word in that particular verse in that particular religious text of that particular sect within that particular religion is the right one, taking into consideration translations across modern languages and ancient languages these texts are derived from; the list goes on. There is also the fact that many around the world are born into areas that favor a certain faith or opinion and may never really come across anything else, and even if they did, may not have the capacity/means/resources to study it.

    Even if we all lived within the average human life expectancy and had all the physical, mental, emotional, economical, scholarly/educational time and resources on our sides to spend every waking moment in our search for Creator, we would still not be able to TRULY, HONESTLY and OBJECTIVELY look at every argument for or against a Creator.

    Again, it is exhausting and disheartening.

    In the end, it is about faith.

    Even Mother Teresa doubted her faith (see below):


    If there is a personal Creator who loves us and wants our salvation, why is it this complicated?

  • OnTheWayOut

    Indonesian tsunamis and Haitian earthquakes that kill children violently and painfully, even the mudslides this week in Columbia that took over 200 lives, dozens of them children. That's enough for me to know that the benevolent "God" does not exist.

    That is an emotional view that does not eliminate the thought of a creator.

    Your thought on a "manual" is a logical thought that shows the Bible is not from a "God of order" despite what JW's taught us.

    The search for God shouldn't have to be an attempt to hit a bullseye or else it's a miss. There is no evidence that any god desires our worship nor deserves it. And if a god wanted us to live a certain way, it should be more obvious.

  • finallysomepride


    if a there really is a creator it is an extremely poor communicator

  • doubtfull1799

    Yes, excellent posts and reasoning I agree with. This is one of the reasons I came to see the Bible as an uninspired book. As a simple "instruction manual for life" it fails miserably. It only works is you cherry pick the good and practical bits and ignore the rest (the ratio of those two things is quite disturbing when you think about it: The big things we really want to know and that we argue about, such as God's will, how the universe was made and our place in it, the nature of good/evil, if God has an organisation, God's purpose etc are all things that we struggle to interpret from singular and cryptic random verses (sometimes only one), yet other less important details, like genealogy, how to recognise leprosy, the ins and outs of sacrifices, random tribal squabbles, the morality of bodily fluids etc are given reams of detailed (and boring) chapters.

    I forget where I read it, but someone once asked why couldn't God just spell out his purpose and requirements in simple skywriting for everyone to see that it was clearly and miraculously from Him, and in clear unambiguous language that everyone cold understand. Then we would have no need for the endless practise of "apologetics," otherwise known as the practice of coming up with creative excuses for why the Bible doesn't make sense.

    God doesn't seem to abide by his own principle - here is what he says about communication: 1 Corinthians 14:8,9. The Bible is certainly sounding an indistinct call and is speaking into the air!

  • Finkelstein

    If there is a personal Creator who loves us and wants our salvation, why is it this complicated?

    Probably because this creator if there is one hasn't shown up in hundred of thousands of years.

    Nature particularly on this planet is certainly remarkable that we are even here by chance but it would be foolish to think there is no other life on the 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 known planets in our observable Universe.

  • Irishdub
    OP HONESTLY and OBJECTIVELY look at every argument for or against a Creator.

    this statement shows you have *consciousness* and *cognitive ability* superior to animals of like body and functions. This (cognitive ability) is an *image of a creative mind* in function. Any ideas how thoughts are formed ?

    cheers ;)

  • waton

    It is very hard to miss seeing creation, usually the sign of accomplished work, the doings of a creator, unless you believe that the universe created itself. Observe how creation works, and do not be disillusioned by comparison to our family based world picture, providing father, nourishing mother. i

    Death is a necesity for life.

  • Saethydd

    I was thinking about this thing earlier today. Many people would argue that their particular Holy Book is better than the others because it produces better results, or espouses better principle etc. However, such things as that are incredibly subjective. In all objective ways these books are the same.

    They were written down originally by men, they were copied over the centuries by men, they were translated by men, and it is up to men to interpret them, and they are so long and unclear that they are interpreted many different ways by many different people.

    If an almighty God truly wanted to make his word stand out from other false works it wouldn't be that hard to provide objective evidence that would convince even the biggest skeptic that one particular Holy Book is different.

    They could have made it a book that requires no translation, anyone who picked it up could read exactly what the Creator intended for them to read without any miscommunication caused by copyists or translators. The creator could have also included his Word coded into the human genome, or perhaps written clearly in the stars.

    Such things as that truly would provided unimpeachable evidence of such a books divine origins. Much more so than a bunch of prophecies that are either vague, could very easily have been written down after they happened, or could have been "fulfilled" in a fictitious account that never happened. (Especially when the prophecy in question wasn't identified as a prophecy about that subject when it was originally recorded.)

  • Crazyguy

    Really he wants to give us salvation but instead of just forgiving us something his son said to do , nope he had to murder his son and then smell the sweet smell of his sacrifice. Not only that before he killed his son he murdered and allowed the murder of millions of woman and children some even had the pleasure of being raped.

    Thanks but no thanks your god sucks!!!

  • venus


    Nice thoughts. The fact that scriptures and religions are extremely complicated shows they do not belong to God. The universe being fine-tuned argues for the existence of God, and at the same time suffering argues for the non-existence of God. I feel this has to be so because this is what makes everyone arrive at his own conclusion about God and purpose of life.

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