"There is evidence of a Creator if you just look for it"

by unsure 56 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • redvip2000
    As a simple "instruction manual for life" it fails miserably

    Of course yes. In fact you can walk into any bookstore and find a much better book on how to deal with problems in life. Real specific problems : How to fight addiction, save your marriage, deal with death in family, find a job, etc etc etc.

    Any one of these books will give real instruction, not just vague hogwash of the bible where you just pray and love god and everything will be ok.

    There is nothing special about the bible. " Don't kill! Don't steal ! Don't sleep with your brother's wife !..... big f*cking deal. Who doesn't know this?? You can look at other religious that use other fairytale books and they also know this is wrong.

  • Finkelstein

    we would still not be able to TRULY, HONESTLY and OBJECTIVELY look at every argument for or against a Creator.

    Most of humanity's concept of a grand Creator was derived from primitive mythological stories brought forth through ignorance and imagination and a set about endeavor of wanting to harness that omniscient power toward themselves.

    The JWS religion and the men who started that religion is just another example of this.

  • waton
    "--My view of Creation is anything but narrow.--
    --Einstein was at most agnostic (many would say atheist)--" unsure:

    I meant to say, for the purpose of a discussion of creation, it would be too narrow a range to limit the scope to evolution. Of course, hopefully you have a rich, fuller spectrum of intellectual activity. Creator? someone once suggested that "god" is a mathematician, answer: "I hope not" and we hope unsure is not made in such "gods" limiting image.

    re: "Einstein, In his scientific work, he expressed, or explained himself as being in recognition of a creator of the reality he worked with, but, on moral questions, he became to be more and more disillusioned with the supposed divinity. During the tragedies of WW 1 he even wrote: " Where is the old Jehovah? ( from the book " Einstein in Berlin")

    so, with his disbelief in a 'dice throwing 'lord", could he be considered a deist?, believer in a non - interventionist creator?

  • Finkelstein

    Yes there is evidence of a creator, all you have to do is look in a mirror.

  • waton

    When I happen to look at my wife together in a mirror, I am shocked, and she should be appalled too, for she is so much more beautiful viewed head on. mirrors and smoke do no justice to the beauty of creation.

  • unsure


    Sorry not sure what you are getting at. I said that Einstein was at most agnostic and some would say athiest. Please see the article I linked which presents some points for both sides and to this day there is much more debate from both sides who want to claim him.

    An exponentially small amount of our known universe is biological so of course I do not limit "creation" to just evolution.

  • Check_Your_Premises

    I don't think it is complicated. People make it so. Religion is people. C.S. Lewis said we should look at religion like a map. We trust someones representation of what they have found, but it isn't the thing itself.

    In Christianity, God gives us two rules. Love God. Love your neighbor as yourself. Now those two rules, are somewhat intuitive (natural law). C.S. Lewis (again) in Mere Christianity, outlines his case outside of Biblical pronouncements (a holy book appealing to it's own authority is not a valid argument). A little thought should also make it obvious that you have not been able to follow those two rules. So you are on the outs with this Rule maker. The reason why Christianity was logical to me, is because God gives you your way back to him. You don't have to earn it, or make it on your own.

    Also, a helpful way for me to think of God was not as a bunch of rules or buildings or people, but just as a friend to have a relationship with. And once I realized that God is all about love, then he became important to me. That is what I want to be about. Anyone who isn't about love is doing religion wrong.

    I was once an atheist and a searcher. I couldn't stomach the idea of believing in something that couldn't be proven (or dis proven). I asked for years (arrogantly) for God to reveal himself to me. To use a 2x4 so there would be no question. Nothing. Then one day, I got the idea to explore faith from the perspective of holding it as a given that there was a God. (a useful method I learned from math, is to hold one parameter as a given so you can explore possibilities). At that moment he began to reveal himself to me, in unmistakable ways. A warning... If you try my experiment, be humble. You are addressing the Almighty.

  • cofty

    In other words, confirmation bias works.

  • Check_Your_Premises

    well yeah... but only for other people.

  • waton


    "--Sorry not sure what you are getting at. I said that Einstein was at most agnostic and some would say athiest

    thank you for that link. reading it re-affirms my impression that Einstein was in no way an atheist, just as Newton too was convinced in a superior mind behind, or better before the natural laws and creation. My impression were formed by reading extensively about A.E. (I quoted from "Einstein in Berlin"--""where is the old Jehovah?")

    Often Einstein referred to the creator as " Der Alte", the old one.

    Modern advocates like to equate Atheism with intelligence and belief in a mind behind nature , deism as dumbness. But remember, the greatest seminal science, Kepler, Newton....... was done by believers, and it was done because they believed, and their discoveries strengthened those beliefs.

    Einstein well exemplifies a deist. your link is highly recommended reading.

    Post Script: Confusion sets in because the term A-theist, which lumps too many shades of unbelief together. Einstein did not believe in a trinitarian or other religious, intervening deity, but did all this work with the conviction in the existence of a prior, superior creative mind, responsible for the cosmos we live in.

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