On respect for the belief of others. Sorry for the long post

by StarTrekAngel 372 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • EdenOne
    EdenOne

    Just to clarify something from the onset, Cofty, I wasn't among those who "disliked" what you wrote.

    I think it shouldn't be hard to concede that insults and personal attacks aren't restricted to the blunt use of harsh name-calling. There are other forms of personal attacks that come wrapped as humor, condescendence, or derrogatory remarks.

    I didn't change my point, I merely clarified my objection to include these. To ridicule someone's ideas is one thing, but to ridicule someone because it holds those ideas is a whole different ball game, but it's a thin line to cross. It's quite common, unfortunately, and this happens in many forums, that some who may actually be right about something, think that gives them authority to insult people on the other side of the fence.

    Eden

  • The Rebel
    The Rebel

    I think the nature of this forum requires online anonymity which is both a curse and a blessing. I think however on this site for obvious reasons being allowed to remain annoynomous is the lesser evil. However often anonymity combined with an audience can bring out the worse in people.

    The Rebel.

  • cofty
    cofty
    I wasn't among those who "disliked" what you wrote

    I really don't care about how any "dislikes" I get, why would I. My objection is to the lack or discussion.

    There are other forms of personal attacks that come wrapped as humor, condescendence, or derrogatory remarks.

    In threads about the big questions believers are in a league of their own when it comes to insults and threats. When you have reality on your side it is water of a duck's back.

    What I will never agree with is - "I don't care how empirical evidence you can gather. Even when you have a solid foundation for your claim, it doesn't entitle you to convince others either."

  • The Rebel
    The Rebel

    Personally I think critical thinking and empirical thinking are important in any science.Truth is objective not subjective. If God is true where is the supporting evidence? The bible in this regard may be the empirical evidence. In my opinion people do not turn to God for purely intellectural evidence, but empirical evidence.

    Sometimes debating and preaching can get confused. Personally I have concluded no actual evidence has ever been provided to substantiate and validate Gods existence. But that does not mean God does not exist, and in my opinion it would be nice if posters could on occasion be a little kinder to each other.

    The Rebel.

  • LisaRose
    LisaRose
    Eden, can you give an example of a post you find objectionable?
  • bohm
    bohm
    EdenOne: I have been involved in a few discussions here about beliefs and opinions. And while I agree that people, not beliefs, warrant respect, and robust arguments (to use Cofty's term) may be brought forward to deconstruct beliefs of others and that is absolutely legit, there's a line that is often crossed, which I find unacceptable, which is to question or attack the person's integrity or intelligence because of some belief or opinion that is held

    I completely concur and your post made me think of something else I have noticed. I think most attacks on this board take a slightly different and more hidden form. You can tell a lot about a persons state of mind by how he or she describe how other people talk and this is also a very basic propaganda technique. For instance I could write:

    EdenOne says: "I have been involved in a few discussions here about beliefs and opinions..."

    which is neutral or I could write:

    EdenOne complains: "I have been involved in a few discussions here about beliefs and opinions..."

    In this way I introduced the idea that you are emotionally perturbed as well as the idea that your argument is not based on reason but emotions. You are the complaining sort of person who will complain no matter what a reasonable person might say.

    Similarly, other prefixes like: rambled, mumbled, blurted-out etc. etc. can be used consistently with regards to what other people say. The other person must never be allowed to simple: say, reason, argue, point out or simply make the point that (...).

    Another common way to do this is that, before responding to anything, you first make comments like:

    "I read your muddled, contradictory and poorly argued post and you did not consider..."

    where the idea the post is contradictory or poorly argued is introduced without evidence. Of course the post might be, but a more honest way to expose this is to point out the arguments which are muddled.

    Or one can introduce the idea the other person does not understand what is plainly written (without evidence) using (presumably) mind-reading by simply saying: "You do not understand the argument" or "its not my fault you can't read" or "i am not going to hold your hands if you cant follow a simple point" or "it's not my fault you dont understand simple words" without pointing out what the argument is or where the misunderstanding lies. These techniques can be used together by doing a line-by-line replay where the techniques are used after every other sentence.

    Of course saying these things are sometimes warranted when the other person really do appear not to understand simple words or deliberately misunderstand words which have been clearly defined, but if used systematically and before trying to correct the misunderstanding it will derail any discussion, it is a basic propaganda technique. I have in the past been somewhat guilty of these crimes with certain posters, and it was after noticing it in others that I realized I was doing myself a great disservice and i was really being obnoxious.


  • Saintbertholdt
    Saintbertholdt

    Personal attacks are unnecessary and cheapens any debate.

    I haven't seen that too often on the forum.

    What I have seen is that there are 'sparring partners'. People who have engaged each other in the past and jump on each others comments. Well you can usually detect it a mile off and you can either ignore it or pass the popcorn and relax while you watch it unfold.



  • Viviane
    Viviane
    Another common way to do this is that, before responding to anything, you first make comments like:
    "I read your muddled, contradictory and poorly argued post and you did not consider..."

    Agreed. It is ridiculous to make assertions like that before responding (although technically that is a response and, as you rightly point out, often an accurate one). It is far better to use words like that (when those descriptors are accurate, of course) only after responding to the post in an objective, factual reality based manner.

    Of course, no one should be bothered by accurate descriptors of reality. Some are, naturally, and there is nothing that can be done about that, but every effort should be made to ensure that those accurate descriptors are well supported by data and that the accurate descriptors are not personal attacks.

    Bohm, do you have a specific example of someone responding in a discussion using words like "muddled" without first having addressed the argument itself?

  • bohm
    bohm
    Bohm, do you have a specific example of someone responding in a discussion using words like "muddled" without first having addressed the argument itself?

    I think this would only derail the discussion but yes on the top of my head I can think of several posters who frequently describe other peoples replies using derogatory language, or assert that the truth is obvious but the other person have not bothered to understand it, rather than addressing the substance of what the other person is saying.

    If you insist on specific examples then in the past I would too sometimes do something like this myself and I believe today it was in part due to being is more stressful life circumstances and in part due to not being confident enough to type out a proper reply.

  • Coded Logic
    Coded Logic

    I have only two rules when I'm debating someone:

    1.) Don't take it personally.

    2.) Don't make it personal.

    Besides regularly breaking rules 1 and 2 I'm really good at obeying my own rules.

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