^^ oops! Still haven't figured out how to use the new board ^^
I'm not all that comfortable getting into details on this case because it's not my place to condemn the mother. That's something personal between the girls and their mom. (And I wasn't there to see everything that occurred)
But I can speak in generalities:
Rev, whether they believed the lie or not is irrelevant, it does not excuse the behavior of the elders in this situation....
I agree 100%
What is at issue here and what Alan and I are trying to address, is whether because they had authority over the flock and the kind of authority that is seldom questioned and generally accepted as coming from God, that they have greater culpability in this situation.
This might be an issue if I were a JW. But I'm not, I'm a parent. And there is not one single thing on this planet or in the Heavens above that would allow my children to continue to be harmed. I would give my earthly life and my eternal life for the safety of my children, in the present, past and future, as a JW and as an ex-JW. I think the Elders have no greater responsibility than any parent If anything, I would believe they have less. The Elders are controlling an adult parent, that should have the common sense to protect their children, and the Parent is controlling an innocent child that can't help themselves. The parent can walk away from their religion, they can walk away from their Elders, but the child can't. The child has no-one to rely on except their parents, and they're being let down, by flesh and blood.
To deny this is to deny that the WTS has any control over its adherents, and that they are free to behave as they wish without the constraints of WTS dictates.
The Watchtower has control over it's adherents just as the Mormons have control of theirs and just as the Catholics theirs, and the Westchester County Country club has of theirs. You can adhere to the rules or you can get out, and there's nothing wrong with that, nor abnormal. There's plenty of other things abnormal about this particular religion without grabbing at straws, and that's exactly what we're doing with that.
This is plainly nonsense as the WTS is a high-control religion and demands on pains of punishment total obedience to its tenets, including an expected total obedience where its appointed elders are concerned.
Yes, so long as you wish to be a Jehovah's Witness, this is true. But again, we've all been taught that the Elders can sometimes be wrong, we all saw it happen time and time again, we were brainwashed to an extent, but we weren't stupid. Can you tell me that you've never seen an Elder fall in all the years you were a JW? How did they explain this?
I don't buy this whole "We were taught to obey the Elders and that they could never be wrong" because that never happened in my congregation. (but to be fair, we had like 9 Elders get the boot all at once, so we were used to seeing Elders fail)
We can only be controlled if we allow ourselves to be controlled, point blank.
This issue was dealt with in great detail at the Nuremburg trail after WWII. While the judges accepted that many of those on trial had been themselves subjected to the influence of mind-altering propaganda, this was not granted as an excuse for their excessive behavior because of the authority that was vested in them.
And what is the difference between the authority of an Elder and the authority of a parent?? While I accept that a parent may be subjected to mind altering propaganda, I do not excuse them from their negligent behavior. I've said it on more than one occasion, I think the negligence on the part of the Elders, the Watchtower Society AND the parents should be a Class 'A' Felony. If parents were held responsible for their actions (or lack thereof), then you'd see a hell of alot more JW parents running to the cops when their child is hurt. We'll sit here and condemn the parent that is still a JW for not going to the authorities for the protection of the children, but we can't if they've left the sect? Why?
Maybe it's because alot of us are simply interested in the falling of the Watchtower, so we get a kick out of the fact that people are leaving it. Frankly, I could care less if all 6 million kept right on going and donate all their money to them. What difference does it make to me? People should be free to worship the way they wish to worship, yet the organization should be accountable for their actions.
I just had a thought. What about these crazy suicide cults. Are the parents that allow, or participate in their children's death equally not responsible because they truly believed that God wanted them to kill their child? They were, after all, directed by their 'Prophet' to do just that in numerous cases around the world. At what point does a parent take responsibility for the protection of their offspring? All you have to do is read the Bible to know that the ultimate responsibility lies in the hands of the parents. Are the parents in these religions that forbid medical treatment excused for their negligence? Should they be, are they just brainwashed? What about abused women who allow their children to be abused by their husbands, in any form, physical, mental, sexually.......they may have no religion, but they've been beaten down and brainwashed by their abuser. Are they excused from protecting their child?
I think what's happening here is that no-one wants to blame the parents because they wish to place ALL the blame for ALL the world's problems on the Watchtower Society, and it simply can't all be their fault. Yes they're crazy, yes they're wrong on so many counts, yes they harm innocent people, yes they have told myriads upon myriads of false prophecies, but are they really responsible for every conceivable thing that goes wrong in our lives? Are we not responsible for our own actions even though we were brainwashed ourselves?
I blame myself for being hooked into this, I blame myself that my daughter lost 4 years of Christmas and Birthdays. I blame myself that I wasted so many years of my life. I can't blame them, they taught this crap to me and I swallowed it. Who's the stupid one?
I remember being hauled in front of the Elders for socializing with my DF'd brother. I told them that if my brother were dying I would give my eternal life to spend one more day with him, so in my eyes at the time that's just what I was willing to do, and that's just what I was doing. I can't imagine not doing the same to protect my own child from harm. So no, I don't get the excuse that one has been filled with propaganda. I think these Elders should hang out to dry, I think the Watchtower society should be hung out to dry, and I think any parent that willingly allows their child to be harmed is not without blame.
Rev
