Watchtower to pay for Silentlambs trip

by Dogpatch 182 Replies latest jw friends

  • amac
    amac
    The mother is able to claim that she had no choice in the matter and that she was obeying her elders instructions, the elders presumably would try to make a similar claim, that is that they were just obeying the tenets of their faith. Even if this were true, they bear by far the greater responsibility in the matter, due to the position of authority they accepted in this case. Surely you can see that?

    No I guess I can't, sorry. The mother and the elders held the same set of beliefs. They both believed it was directed by God. They both held to the tenets, despite the harm it caused to the Berry girls. I see no difference in responsibility. They all put their belief system ahead of the well being of the girls, in my mind, the ranking and pecking order is irrelevant.

    If my religion tells me that it is OK for my wife to poke our kids in the eye once a day and I go along with it, even to the point of asking the elders of my religion and they concur to let it happen, I'm still the responsible one. My wife and I are directly responsible for what happens to my children.

    I agree that the elders would be wrong for telling people it's OK to poke your kid in the eye, but no more wrong than me as a parent for listening to them. (Not to make light of the situation, but to use a less graphic example.)

  • hillary_step
    hillary_step
    No I guess I can't, sorry. The mother and the elders held the same set of beliefs. They both believed it was directed by God. They both held to the tenets, despite the harm it caused to the Berry girls. I see no difference in responsibility. They all put their belief system ahead of the well being of the girls, in my mind, the ranking and pecking order is irrelevant.

    So the non-conscripted infantryman sent to battle by an irresponsible General and who subsequently dies, is as responsible for his death as the General who sent him? The parallels between military rank and WTS rank are easily sustained. They both involve hierarchy, belief and responsibility. A soldier believes in his country, he looks to his Generals to intepret those beliefs into a constructive plan for its defense. When the General fails his men, he is culpable.

    Regardless of the depth of beliefs of the elders in this circumstance, they had authority over this women, and behaved irresponsibly. However sincerley they held to the tenets of their beliefs, they uased their authority over this women and her girls to further endanger their lives. They are culpable in a far greater way than the mother. It is the issue of authority that you seem to be sidestepping.

    Would you not agree that these elders held a powerful authority over the decisions that this women made? If so, do you accept that the exercise of this authority led to these children being harmed? If so, do you believe that this damage can be waived as the elders shared the same core beliefs in God as the mother? If so how can you ignore the issue of greater repsonsibility owing to this authority. This is not about belief systems so much as the exercise of personal authority over another subservient individual.

    Best - HS

  • amac
    amac

    So the non-conscripted infantryman sent to battle by an irresponsible General and who subsequently dies, is as responsible for his death as the General who sent him?

    In the grand scheme of things, yes. If he signed up with the knowledge that he may die in warfare, he made a responsible decision to take that risk. And your analogy is a little different than the real case. I am far from one to defend DFing but it does not quite compare to jail time that a soldier would face for disobeying. So I would say that a JW has more choice than a non-conscripted soldier.

    A soldier believes in his country, he looks to his Generals to intepret those beliefs into a constructive plan for its defense. When the General fails his men, he is culpable.

    Have there been any civil lawsuits against General's for the wrongful death of their soldiers? (not criminal charges mind you) I really don't know, but if not that says a bit about how culpable they are. If there have been, than just pretend I never brought it into the discussion.

    Would you not agree that these elders held a powerful authority over the decisions that this women made?

    I agree.

    If so, do you accept that the exercise of this authority led to these children being harmed?

    I agree.

    If so, do you believe that this damage can be waived as the elders shared the same core beliefs in God as the mother?
    The damage cannot be waived. But I do think the responsibility is shared by the mother since she VOLUNTARILY submitted to their authority. I only view their authority as giving them spiritual control, anything beyond that is the responsibility of the individual since they voluntarily submit to the authority.
  • hillary_step
    hillary_step

    Amac,

    We must I think, agree to disagree over this. Thank you for the civilized debate.

    Bets regards - HS

  • amac
    amac

    I agree that we should agree to disagree about any agreement.

    Thank you, as well.

  • AlanF
    AlanF

    Amac, I don't believe you have a very good understanding of the JW religion and how it works. It appears that you were once a JW, but you don't seem to have absorbed the nuances of the culture.

    Rank and file JWs, like Sarah Berry, are given a rather different set of standards by the Watchtower hierarchy than are elders. In turn, elders are given somewhat different sets of standards than Circuit Overseers, and so it goes on up the hierarchy. At each level, more knowledge of how the Watchtower really works is given. At the bottom level, issues are deliberately made warm and fuzzy, and often represent reality only from a view of 100,000 meters. For example, in The Watchtower the Society often strongly promotes the notion that elders are appointed by holy spirit. Well of course, what this really means is that, to the extent that elders are appointed according to perfect Bible standards, it can be said that elders are in effect appointed by holy spirit. That notion "in effect" is all-important, because the Society almost always leaves it extremely fuzzy, and so most rank and file JWs miss it completely and think that elders -- in particular the Governing Body -- are directly appointed by holy spirit, and so God has literally inspired someone in the hierarchy to appoint each individual elder. Elders themselves, however, are perfectly well aware of this notion "in effect", and are not deceived into thinking that they themselves, or any of their fellows, are literally appointed by holy spirit. Getting up to the GB level, these men are perfecly well aware that they rarely have anything to do with appointment of elders, which is taken care of by the Watchtower bureaucracy, which is mainly composed of "non-anointed" and uninspired men. At intermediate levels, the hierarchy is well aware that their level is further from being "spirit directed" than levels below them.

    With this knowledge comes responsibility. Since no Watchtower official such as a GB member claims to be inspired, and most of them know perfectly well that they can rarely even claim to be "spirit directed", they also know that the laws, commands and doctrines they promulgate to rank and file JWs are at best their own personal interpretations of the Bible. They may cause the Writing Department to deceive the rank and file about this, but I'm talking about what these men know to be the facts down deep in their hearts. Thus there is increasing level of personal responsibility to do what is right, despite pressures from above, all the way up the ranks.

    One might compare this to the Bible story of Adam and Eve. Eve was thoroughly deceived by the serpent, even though she had direct knowledge of God by virtue of hearing his voice in the garden of Eden every day. But Adam was not deceived. Eve can be compared to rank and file JWs and Adam to GB members. They all believe more or less the same thing, but with quite different levels of knowledge of how strong the claims to direction by holy spirit are.

    So it is in the case of Sarah Berry, her former elders, and Watchtower leaders. Sarah was thoroughly deceived into believing that elders' words are based on direction by holy spirit. She had no incentive, once becoming a JW (and many of us were raised as JWs and never had any reason to question what we were taught) to question this claimed God-given advice. But the elders knew better. They knew that their advice was not from God, but was from their own interpretations and from the Society, which they also knew was not getting direction from holy spirit about the girls' abuse. And when Watchtower itself was consulted, they knew that their advice was purley human. And when all of these people who did or should have known about reporting laws -- after all, they all claim to be spirit-appointed "shepherds of the flock of God" -- failed to report, and failed to do what they knew what was right, and bullied Sarah Berry into keeping quiet, they abused their authority and they failed in their claim to be such shepherds. While one might argue that Sarah has some responsibility for failing to report, that argument fails to take into account the thoroughly deceptive nature of JWism and how it causes otherwise bright and responsible people to abdicate all responsibility for their decisions -- even the most important ones of life -- to the Watchtower hierarchy. Thus, as Hillary Step has argued, the responsibility increases up the chain of command. Watchtower officials on every level cannot be excused from this merely because some responsibility might be assigned to 'Eve'.

    AlanF

  • avishai
    avishai
    . I am far from one to defend DFing but it does not quite compare to jail time that a soldier would face for disobeying

    Uhh, at least in jail, your family is allowed to visit you a few hours a week.

    However, I do agree, in a sense , w/ some of the things you say. I think parents that let these things happen, religion or not, are partly culpable. But if they turn around & help w/ the investigation, I think granting them immunity is in order.

  • setfreefinally
    setfreefinally

    Alanf, that last post was excellent! That has got to be the best description of how the hierachy of JW's really work that I have ever read!

    SFF

  • hillary_step
    hillary_step

    Alan,

    A very good post!

    I have found that when people cannot distinguish the degrees of culpability within an organized system it is a little like trying to ski on mud, exhausting and one gets nowhere. I remember a couple of years ago having a similar conversation with somebody, I believe on this Board, who eventually maneuvered himself into the situation of agreeing that every German soldier should have been tried at Nuremberg as they were equally guilty of crimes against humanity as their leaders were!

    I believe that the findings of the Nuremberg trial was an epoch setting moment. So many of the issues that we grapple with on this Board were dealt with there.

    Best - HS

  • RevMalk
    RevMalk

    To say that the Elders KNEW they were NOT being directed by the Holy Spirit is hogwash at best. None of us can get into the minds of these men. I believe that most Elders DO believe they are being directed by the Holy Spirit, but that as well, may be complete hogwash, for all I know. These guys live this lie whether they realize it or not, but no matter what, I would think they start to believe. They're so overwhelmed with power, they probably think that's the gift of the Holy Ghost!

    The Elders in general are just as misled as the rest of the rank and file JWs, and don't think they aren't. They're lied to and filled with garbage just like the rest of them are. Are they in a better position to see the wrong? Of course, but by the time they make it to that position they're so full of 'glory' they can't see straight.

    To say that is not true, is to say that Bill Bowen spent how many years misleading his flock intentionally? I don't think any (many?) of you guys believe that to be true. I spent 20+ years as a JW and never once did I believe the Elders, nor the GB to be faultless, and I don't believe anyone in the faith believes that, nor is led to believe that to be true. If any of them DO believe it, than they have personal problems of their own. I personally never believed they were directly appointed by the Holy Spirit, although I did believe they "relied on the help" of the Holy Spirit. I think sometimes we're so ready to throw blame at the Watchtower, that we paint them all out to be evil, like it's a 6 million person strong conspiracy. Give me a break!

    Don't get me wrong, I'm all for this lawsuit, and I wish the Berrys well. My only intentions in commenting on this thread, is to point out that it's a 50/50 toss-up on whether or not that body of Elders knew they were doing wrong or not. We can 'assume' Sarah Berry was brainwashed, and we can 'assume' the Elders knew full well they were doing wrong, and we can 'assume' Bill Bowen intentionally spent many years partaking in a conspiracy, and we can 'assume' Franz started this nasty ball rolling, and we can 'assume' everyone in this organization is evil, and we can 'assume' alot of other things, but assumption is a funny thing, especially when based on the complete lack of knowledge we have regarding the things in the minds of other individuals.

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit