Will there ever be another Ray Franz?

by nicolaou 39 Replies latest jw friends

  • jst2laws
    jst2laws

    IslandWoman,

    This is good. But I must respectfully disagree with:

    Wasn't it love of God that caused Ray Franz to do what he did? Isn't it love of God that caused many of us to leave the Watchtower?

    Yes, as it was "love of God" that caused Russel to leave Christendom.

    Love of God is a powerful thing, but it does not cause us to do evil. Love of God was not the cause of the inquisition. Love of power, control, greed and whatever other evil thing there is may have been the cause but not love of God.

    If your God is the old Hebrew scripture concept of Yahweh, or Jehovah"of armies" then you also love "control", or "Power". That is what Jehovah was about, violence and control. But Jesus NEVER refered to his father as Jehovah.

    WONDER WHY???

    Jst2laws

  • onacruse
    onacruse

    Hmmm, many good thoughts here...

    My speculation: In the relatively short history of the WTS there have already been several major coups (1916-7, 1932, 1938, 1944), and 3 major defection episodes (1914-8, 1925-8, 1975-82). That's an average of almost one major incident per decade.

    The fruit of hypocrisy may be getting ripe yet again?

    Craig

  • blondie
    blondie

    Hi IW, I was just thinking about you this week.

    I think too about myself and how just a few years ago I wasn't quite ready to walk away from the WTS. I'm glad that the seeds that had been planted in me from my personal observations and close reading of the Bible had time to grow and bear fruitage in me. I figure that there are others out there like me, where seeds have been planted but the understanding of what dangers lie in the hypocrisy of the WTS as an organization has not come to maturity.

    Eventually, people either leave because they no longer can be part of it or they give in/compromise and become part of the deception gradually eating away at the fine qualities they have. I know one brother who has had to tell so many deliberate lies to the brothers and sisters, that he no longer likes himself and wonders why he is depressed.

    Well, that's just my opinion based on my experiences.

    Welcome back.

    Blondie

  • herk
    herk
    I know one brother who has had to tell so many deliberate lies to the brothers and sisters, that he no longer likes himself and wonders why he is depressed.

    That was one of my major reasons for leaving. As I defended the organization to those who had complaints, doubts and misgivings, I hated myself more and more as time went on. I came to realize that I was distorting the true picture and polishing an image that was in decay and far beyond recovery.

  • IslandWoman
    IslandWoman

    Hi Jst2laws,

    While we cannot judge individuals, it can I believe safely be said that just because someone claims to love God does not in itself make it so. Just as when adult children who mistreat their aged parents while claiming to love them, the mistreatment does not support their claim of love. So also with those who claim to act out love for God, it is their actions rather than their claim that proves their love for God.

    If your God is the old Hebrew scripture concept of Yahweh, or Jehovah"of armies" then you also love "control", or "Power". That is what Jehovah was about, violence and control. But Jesus NEVER refered to his father as Jehovah.

    WONDER WHY???

    Jst2laws

    I do not believe in the inerrancy of the Bible, the law of Moses in my view is just that, the law of Moses.

    What they deemed necessary to do in their day was their choice, just as it was Paul's choice to structure the congregations as he saw fit even though Jesus himself never said anything about that. Paul did what he thought was good just as Moses and Joshua did. But it does not mean that God was directing their every move and action and approved of everything that was done. They wanted to build a nation so that's what they did, they wanted laws so that's what they made. They built their own house just as we must today.

    The Almighty does not get involved in minutia, this is why he gave us a brain and a conscience. :)

    Yes, it is interesting isn't it, the fact that Jesus is not recorded as having used the Tetragrammaton. Time to leave the Jews behind I guess and make a new god. Not that Jesus intended it that way but the writers of the NT seemed to. (BTW, there is a great fault with the previous two sentences, but decided to leave them up anyway. :)

    In my opinion, our love and worship of God should be directed towards him alone and through no one else. We are free.

    Enjoyed your comments,

    Linda

  • blondie
    blondie

    herk, what finally was the last straw? What made you take that step to leave?

    Blondie

  • Francois
    Francois

    Will we ever need another Ray Franz? Frankly I feel a word to the wise is sufficient, and we've had our word. I don't think we'll ever need another Ray any more than we'll ever need another Jesus or another twelve disciples. This is a very serious question. However if you cogitate upon it for just a few minutes you realize why we'll never need another Ray Franz.

    francois

  • jst2laws
    jst2laws

    Island Woman,

    I must have misread you. I agree with everything you said above. I think the ownly point we may have differed on had something ot do with loving men effecting possitive change in what I perceive to be a self-perpetuating movement.

    Even the changes Ray was part of in the 70's did not result in long lasting possitive change. The GB has turned out to be more ruthless, dishonest and narrow minded than the presidency. The important point is that the people behind those changes were men motivated by love. Ray helped get the GB's power from the presidency and the GB turned around and devoured Ray.

    In my opinion, our love and worship of God should be directed towards him alone and through no one else. We are free

    Now that is a most important point. Love is between you, God and your fellow humans. Love moves individuals with regard to individuals. It may be when individuals love an institution or an ideal instead of God and people then hurting people can be justified. This is what we have with the WT and JWs and I still doubt any administrative or even doctrinal changes within the Watchtower will change this love of the concept to genuine love of God.

    Again, I hope you stay with us Linda

    Steve

  • herk
    herk

    Blondie,

    Thanks.

    Up until age 40, I had simply accepted what the organization taught me, without question. I felt I had found the truth that all people seem to be seeking. But from then until I was almost 60, I entertained serious questions about the organization and its teachings, and I developed doubts. I began seeking for something better.

    The main reason for this was that I had resolved to read the Bible from cover-to-cover as often as I could for the rest of my life. Part of my motivation was that I felt I wasn’t making the progress I should as a Christian. I was embarrassed that others I knew, inside and outside of JWs, had a better knowledge of the Bible than I did. I had been in full-time service most of my life, but I felt inferior when younger men who had raised families and worked in the "outside" world often showed more maturity and common sense than I thought I had. I was determined to catch up by getting as close to God as I possibly could when one is a member of the "other sheep class."

    In a short time I began to see the Bible in a new way. The thought kept losing its power that the Bible was written directly to "the anointed" only. When I had questions about what I was reading, and those questions were not covered in the Society’s literature, I spoke to members of Bethel’s writing staff personally. Most of them were of the "other sheep class." They showed no hesitation in helping me find very logical answers from "worldly" commentaries. I was amazed to discover that Matthew Henry, for example, dealt with the Bible to a far greater extent than the Society had, even going all the way back to the days of C. T. Russell. And Henry produced his awesome commentary in the 1700s! He was a trinitarian as he wrote, but later his entire congregation switched to being non-trinitarian. Eventually, at the suggestion of one of the writers, I purchased Henry's set of commentaries. It should be noted that the Society doesn’t condemn this since his work was produced before the WT's so-called 1918 "judgment day of the house of God."

    I had always done the best I could to comply with all the rules and regulations of the organization. I felt it was my responsibility to aid others to also conform. Obedience to God meant being loyal to an organization that I felt he had founded and directed. But regular Bible reading was causing my relationship with God to become more personal. I began to appreciate that conformance to the thinking of God and Christ was not the same as always submitting religiously to a group of imperfect men.

    Some of the answers I got from non-WT commentaries to simple Bible questions were very different from those published in WT literature. I could give many examples, but here are a few:

    • The "other sheep" of John 10:16 are those not yet disciples when Jesus spoke, especially Gentiles, but certainly not a secondary class of Christians who would receive a destiny different from the first disciples.
    • Christianity is a way of life, not membership in a particular organization.
    • The earliest churches were independent, not controlled or directed by a governing body.
    • The restoration prophecies of the Hebrew Scriptures apply to faithful Jews as well as to the Christian church, not to a printing establishment that came into existence thousands of years after Jesus' earthly ministry.
    • The return of Christ will be visibly observed by every person on earth, not by a comparatively small group of men who would see him in a mystically invisible sense.
    • The Bible offers only one salvation destiny, not two.

    I began to wrestle with big questions about my faith. How did I know I was really a Christian? I performed as the organization expected, but I felt that my institutional environment was requiring me to brush aside some of Jesus’ vital teachings. In fact, the organization was teaching things that were not even hinted at in the scriptural context or that contradicted the Bible’s plain and simple statements. I didn’t feel it was safe to discuss my questions and doubts with anyone in the organization, so I kept them to myself for many years. Day and night I prayed earnestly that God would open my eyes and my heart to his truth and to where I might find people who already possessed it.

    Occasionally I would learn of improper, even immoral, conduct by one prominent member or another. At times I was an eyewitness to the unfair treatment of underlings who were falsely accused by elders, circuit overseers or other leaders. The usual answer to such absurd conduct was that God would remedy the situation if we would just wait on him. But in many cases, years would pass and the wrongdoers would advance to greater authority and their victims would languish deeper in hurt feelings or bitterness. This was disturbing to me and led to heartache, especially when men in authority seemed critical of those who offered information that could have resulted in a correction of the unfair situations.

    Finally, I sought out an old friend who had left JWs several years ago. We spent an entire day discussing many of my most difficult questions. I was deeply impressed by his logic and use of the Scriptures, but even more by the faith and joy that radiated from him. When he spoke, I knew without a shadow of a doubt that he had a relationship with God and Jesus and that he was experiencing that something more in Christianity that was missing from my own life. I would have given anything to have a life like his.

    I thought about that discussion for the next few days, and I made up my mind to leave Jehovah’s Witnesses within the coming year. Of course, leaving was nevertheless very difficult. I knew I would need to let go of fifty years' worth of friendships and of many things I'd been taught. But I knew that God was answering my many prayers of the past several years and that my decision could only lead to the better life and greater blessings that I was hoping for. It turned out to be the best step I ever took in my life.

  • blondie
    blondie

    herk, you certainly struggled and searched. So many JWs think people leave because of having their feelings hurt by something someone said. Obviously, you have not made it such a simple thing. Fifty years, is a great deal to give up. In a different post, I said that to leave JWs means being willing to suffer some pain and losing things you consider valuable.

    Occasionally I would learn of improper, even immoral, conduct by one prominent member or another. At times I was an eyewitness to the unfair treatment of underlings who were falsely accused by elders, circuit overseers or other leaders. The usual answer to such absurd conduct was that God would remedy the situation if we would just wait on him. But in many cases, years would pass and the wrongdoers would advance to greater authority and their victims would languish deeper in hurt feelings or bitterness. This was disturbing to me and led to heartache, especially when men in authority seemed critical of those who offered information that could have resulted in a correction of the unfair situations.

    The above quote embodies what finally made me leave, especially in regard to child abuse cases in the congregation. I could no longer preach to people to become part of an organization that covered up abuse and protected the abusers.

    May you continue succesfully in your search, Herk.

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