Will there ever be another Ray Franz?

by nicolaou 39 Replies latest jw friends

  • Realist

    the question is..would it have an impact if there were another franz? did the first one cause a mass exodus? would it cause one now? i doubt it.

  • herk




    Here's my take: Martin Luther and other brilliant men didn't bring about the end of the Catholic Church. So I doubt that a hundred men like Raymond Franz, as decent, scholarly and honest as he is, could accomplish anything more than the Reformers did if, indeed, that was their intention.

  • herk


    I've been thinking about "mass exodus." Since 1994 I've met hundreds who've left JWs as a result of Ray's books. Each of them knew probably scores of others. The books have enjoyed a tremendous circulation so far in 12 languages. While the majority of JWs are not leaving at the moment, it's hard to say what the end result will eventually be.

  • Gordy

    Is there a need for another "Ray Franz"?

    The impact of Ray's books has been great on many JW's and has had a knock on effect. The books helped people seen that the WT organisation was not what it said it was. It caused many to begin to investigate for themselves. What they learnt they made known to others and son.

    Then you have those like Bill Bowen etc,who if not for the pedophile issue would probably still be a JW.

    The arrogant way the Watchtower has behaved over such issues as the pedophiles and UN, in a way has shot itself in the foot, it has been its worst enemy.

    Recently I have been contacted my JW's who have left, who have been Ministerial Servants or Elders of many years service as JW's. . Many other publishers worldwide have written to me saying they are leaving.

    Talking to my daughter the othe day, she is 21 and DA'd JW. She is still in touch with a few young JW's. She made the remark, she had noticed that many, that are in the age group 16 to 25 are either not becoming JW's or are leaving. I have heard of how the children of local elders are refusing to get baptised and even leaving home. A cousin of mine who is a MS has two daughters, one (18) has left home and gone to live with her boyfriends parents, the other (14) asked the local authority. that she be taken into care.

    At the end of the JW service year, they will probably claim an increase of 2-3%. But when you check the figures closely you see a different story. They are struggling in many countries to get make to levels they were at in the mid 1990's.

    Another Ray Franz , would be great, but I'm sure the WT heirarchy are making sure there will not be one.

  • nicolaou

    Bumped to complement Witness 007's thread.....

  • hillbilly

    with the lay-offs and rumblings about the Circuit work I'd expect to see a few 'kiss and tell" books in the next few years.

    We can only hope that they are not shrill and spiteful. Ray wrote a very objective book..and thats what has made it so valuable.


  • james_woods

    Maybe there will be...maybe not.

    One thing you have to remember about Ray, Ed Dunlap, Marion Dunlap, and the other reformers of the late 70s is that they were all basically believers in the Bible and fundamentalist reformers at heart. Not an Agnostic or an Atheist in the lot of them.

    They never really wanted to leave the Borg. They wanted to reform it.

    They were thrown out for their trouble.

    If there should ever be another breed like them, I think it must come from that sort of naive sympathy for what the WTS could and should have been. These guys were never the Apostate Haters that the current WTS makes them out to be. They just wanted to help make things better, in their simple childlike way.

  • Graham G.
    Graham G.

    No Brummie. I received an email from him yesterday. June 09. He's alive.

  • wha happened?
    wha happened?

    I doubt anyone would ever voice dissent after a lifetime in that organization leaving them little to no ability to care for themselves financially.

    He was made an example of and everyone in that building knows it. I think a number of those under the GB might see the light of day.

  • Gayle

    Ray was a constant researcher and writer there and truly was one of the most interesting commentors when it was his week for morning text (when the GB took weekly turns) and yet one of the humblest. Most were not such reseachers nor writers, commented only from literature that we had already read (I could only think, where's the coffee!) . 25 years later and with only 9 GB presently (2 very, very old, 3 very old, and 4 past 55+, where will 'they' go? Any of them writers much? reseachers much? Where can they get their 'free' thinking? Time will tell but I am not hearing much hope about them. The only possible hope can be from others, the crying 'lambs', the families losing loved ones due to the blood doctrinairism, and, of course, we the survivors!

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