This is What I Would Need in Order to Believe (page 11)

cofty

But if he is exists then by his own definition of love he is unloving.

John_Mann

But if he is exists then by his own definition of love he is unloving.

Cofty, try to suspend the property of existence in our conversation about God.

Pretend we are making a fictional character. But we want a logically consistent character with our known universe.

In this scenario do you think is impossible to build an all-loving and all-powerful being with the existence of natural evil?

cofty

Let's be more specific.

Do you think is impossible to build an all-loving and all-powerful being with the existence of natural evil such as a tsunami?

Yes.

Saethydd

I got this one cofty. Because an all-powerful AND an all-loving creator wouldn't put innocent people in harm's way.

If he's all powerful that means he can save innocents, if he's all-loving that means he's motivated to save innocents. When motive is combined with ability in that regard, then no innocent people would be getting killed.

But they are getting killed. Which means either God can't save all the innocent people, or he's refusing to do it. Making him either ineffectual, or kind of a jerk.

Though, as I have stated, I believe the most probable situation is simply that no deity exists at all.

John_Mann

But if natural evil is someway somehow necessary to accomplish a greater good like eternal heaven?

We see a lot of examples of necessary evil is needed to get a greater good. Like medical procedures.

We also must consider the very nature of God is the source of necessary laws that must be applied to all possible worlds.

Saethydd

Ah, but "necessary evils" are only necessary in human actions, because humans are not all-powerful.

If humans were all powerful medical procedures wouldn't be needed.

And natural laws are indifferent. So if the natural laws come from God then he isn't all-loving, he is indifferent.

If you want to say that God is either not all-powerful or is indifferent to humans then I'd be willing to consider it, but I would challenge how you acquired your knowledge about such a being.

cofty

Saethydd - I agree, thanks.

John_mann please explain specifically why a tsunami is a necessary evil?

deegee

John_Mann,

But if natural evil is someway somehow necessary to accomplish a greater good like eternal heaven?

If eternal heaven is the greater good then what does this make human existence on earth?...........an experiment?

Well what an experiment it has been:
The dinosaurs lived for millions of years on the earth prior to humans. Then after those millions of years some major cataclysmic event wiped out the dinosaurs when God got tired of those toys.

........accomplish a greater good like eternal heaven

Now we know why the earth is so hostile to human life because God needs to ensure our death so that we can attain the greater good of the afterlife in heaven.
______

The earth is certainly down right hostile to life. From massive asteroids crashing into the planet to cycles of heating to mass ice-ages the planet routinely kills of life en masse to:

Floods, tropical storms, hurricanes, typhoons, cyclones, monsoons, tsunamis, tornadoes, snow storms/blizzards, dust storms, sand storms, thunderstorms, sink holes, lightening, earthquakes, volcanic eruptions, avalanches, landslides, wildfires, being swept out to sea etc, the stories are endless:

http://www.sciencealert.com/what-happens-after-being-hit-by-lightning?perpetual=yes&limitstart=1

http://jamaica-gleaner.com/article/world-news/20160515/64-killed-lightning

http://jamaica-gleaner.com/article/world-news/20160623/lightning-kills-least-90

http://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/world/5-year-old-dies-after-being-struck-by-lightning/ar-BBv50hs?ocid=mailsignout

http://m.jamaicaobserver.com/latestnews/Lightning-strikes-rank-first-cause-of-death-by-natural-phenomena-in-Cuba

http://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/canada/man-killed-by-lightning-while-mowing-lawn-in-tillsonburg-ont/ar-BBv6cTL?ocid=mailsignout

https://ca.yahoo.com/news/3-women-simultaneously-struck-lightning-093910809.html

http://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/world/san-andreas-fault-%e2%80%98locked-loaded-and-ready-to-go%e2%80%99-with-big-quake-expert-says/ar-BBsFGUu?li=AAggFp5

http://www.msn.com/en-ca/sports/more-sports/extreme-snowboard-world-champion-killed-in-avalanche/ar-BBrXinG?li=AAggNb9&ocid=mailsignout

http://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/canada/fires-in-bcs-north-forces-hundreds-out/ar-BBrXPEb?li=AAggFp5&ocid=mailsignout

http://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/canada/i%e2%80%99m-just-so-scared-for-my-city-thousands-flee-in-largest-evacuation-in-albertas-history/ar-BBsCban?li=AAggNb9&ocid=mailsignout

http://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/canada/fort-mcmurray-devastated-by-raging-wildfire/ar-BBsD6zo?li=AAggNb9&ocid=mailsignout